A bit unrealistic from what little I know of subs, I doubt that many racks would go empty even if there were women on board because of space and manning issues.
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Woman + Subs
- Thread starter RedFive
- Start date
A bit unrealistic from what little I know of subs, I doubt that many racks would go empty even if there were women on board because of space and manning issues.
You never know the pool of interested women unless you open it up or poll all women at USNA and all the ROTC units or something. I will say if I were to be drafted into the nuke community, I know I would go subs over SWO nuke if I had the option. I can't speak for all women, but that would be my preference.
And to the few women taking up a 9-man while men are hotracking issue, I'd imagine they'd probably stick female officers and enlisted together in a 9 man before it came to that. Hell, on surface ships they already do that. One of my best friends is a SWO on deployment right now and she's in enlisted berthing. It's not ideal, but I could see it happening.
And to the few women taking up a 9-man while men are hotracking issue, I'd imagine they'd probably stick female officers and enlisted together in a 9 man before it came to that. Hell, on surface ships they already do that. One of my best friends is a SWO on deployment right now and she's in enlisted berthing. It's not ideal, but I could see it happening.
Different issue entirely. Pushing buttons underwater and wondering how to separate the heads is not analogous to being an elite operator humping a massive pack and possibly having to throw your 200 lb shipmate over your shoulder to get his body out.
And now it's eight. Who cares if we don't make policy, no harm in a civil discussion about the issue.
Can you clarify how it is that you know the intentions of these females? And even if this is what they're thinking, how is this anecdotal "evidence" any better than phrogpilot73's about his wife? Not saying your experiences don't matter in debates like this, but I always understood that the best evidence usually comes from studies that benefit from the law of large numbers, such as a formal survey.
I see what you're getting at with mission readiness importance, but I think your expectations are bit unrealistic and unreasonable. It seems like you're saying that women entering the Navy should expect to have no aspirations outside of being a successful sailor for that period of time. But first of all, isn't that different from what the Navy really espouses? Aren't we encouraged to have other things to live for, like a family for instance? It seems pretty normal and expected that a male sailor get married and have kids when he so desires, though we're educated to plan for it. Seems a bit unfair that women be expected to put such aspirations on hold for an arbitrary period of time. Secondly, on a practical note, if we do impose that arbitrary restriction, can we really expect it to be effective? As phrogdriver pointed out earlier, as human beings, we're hard pressed to keep those sexual urges at bay for long periods of time; and just because a woman is hell bent on being the best damn sailor going in, doesn't mean she might not get wistful about being with someone or having kids a year or two down the road. Is it better to just regulate everything, or pick and choose your regulations, knowing that inevitable human errors will just jam more paperwork between regulatory hard places?
Personally, I agree with previous comments that integration on the subs is inevitable, and I doubt that it will make the sub force less effective if all other variables, especially training and leadership, remain the same.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
Think beyond officers. I was referring to enlisted male sailors being forced to hot rack in favor of enlisted females getting their own 9-man. Unless you're saying that men and women are given the same room on surface ships, which, to my knowledge, doesn't happen.
Even if it is just on the officer end...say you have 2 enlisted sailors and 1 female officer aboard a sub. You stick them all in a 9-man. Great, that's still 6 racks unused.
If you want to talk officers, what do you do with a female DH on the sub? Make the 2 other male DH's share rooms with enlisted sailors? I'm sure senior LTs and LCDRs would love that, as if officer retention in the sub community wasn't bad enough already.
Think beyond simple numbers, your getting way too much in the weeds. There simply is not enough room on a sub to fuck around too much with sleeping arrangements. I don't know too much about sub life but from what every sub guy has told me that is the case.
And give the Navy a little credit, they ain't going to screw things up that bad, especially in the beginning. This is not a military college in South Carolina that throws together a plan in two months on how to introduce women into a new environment. If done by the type of sub officers I have known it will be planned out to the gnat's ass detail with the utmost of professionalism. They don't fuck around, they get the job done and do it right, period. They will do this right too.
You can't apply a "cure all" to something like this. I agree that a woman getting intentionally pregnant on cruise causes problems. And I don't know what you're experiences are but they are certainly not the norm. I personally have never seen a woman get pregnant on purpose (or by accident) to avoid a deployment. As a matter of fact, all the women I know that have gotten pregnant planned it around deployments and continued to work basically until they went into labor.... my wife included. She flew through the first 6 months with both our kids and then was required to stop. The last three months she still went to work everyday to do her ground job, stand duty, whatever. And she was back to work as soon as the 6 weeks convalescent leave was over.
A woman gets pregnant on purpose/accidentally and a man seriously injures himself off duty because he was being stupid..... either way, it was irresponsible and the command is out one person and needs to find a replacement. But which one is "worse"?
In this particular case, the way you present yourself is irresponsible and unprofessional. Given the chance, would you REALLY stand in front of the CNO or SECDEF and suggest we temporarily sterilize ALL females entering the armed services? I seriously doubt it.
EVERYONE gets a flu shot. Suggesting that all women get a mandatory procedure to sterilize them is discrimination..... unless you're also suggesting that all men get a similar procedure.
The "sexual misconduct" you're probably referring to usually involves a senior officer/enlisted having sex with a junior officer/enlisted.... one or both of which are married. Obviously bad.
Two unmarried sailors having consensual sex on port call and one winds up pregnant isn't "sexual misconduct". Nothing illegal about that. However, the woman may eventually get sent home and her "career consequences" could be less time at sea then her peers, less chances for advancement and possibly a less than stellar FITREP.
Miya808
New Member
I have very little to add to this wonderful conversation. I'm a woman and I don't think women should be on subs and that's all I'm going to say about that.
I will say that I am completely horrified by this:
And only because that has got to taste awful.
Phrogdriver, I really needed that laugh today. Thanks!
I will say that I am completely horrified by this:
And only because that has got to taste awful.
Phrogdriver, I really needed that laugh today. Thanks!
I'm a woman and while I'd rather hang by my toes than have to serve on a sub, more power to the women who are qualified and want to be bubble heads.
A few submariners are friends of the family and if their personalities are indicative of the types of men in that service, I can honestly say that when the word comes down to integrate, they'll come up with a rock-solid plan, execute it flawlessly, and do it without a word of bitching. They thrive on bat-shit crazy challenges.
A few submariners are friends of the family and if their personalities are indicative of the types of men in that service, I can honestly say that when the word comes down to integrate, they'll come up with a rock-solid plan, execute it flawlessly, and do it without a word of bitching. They thrive on bat-shit crazy challenges.
What if you just replaced all the guys in a berthing space with women? Would that work? No one would be "displaced", have to share racks, or cram extra guys into another space.