Wink's CCW Murder Board

[wink]

You say break it down. We did. For the situation that started the debate...a night time break in. You are changing the situation to fit your arguement. If you would like to give another situation instead of a hodgepodge shotgun-like rant we would be happy to discuss our thoughts.

Is this your combat aviator response to a threat?

I never disagreed with the homeowners actions at the start of this thread. He met every criteria I live by, every law enforcement officer in the country, and most states laws. I disagree with the prospect that an unarmed compliant trespasser in a home may be shot dead by the homeowner.

Situation:

A Deputy Sheriff is taking fire from a trailer home (why is it always trailer homes). He has taken cover behind his open car door and is on the radio. You come upon the scene with your gun. As you approach from behind the Deputy you see a man crawling through the brush with a rifle to an ambush position on the Deputy. He is pointing the rifle in the direction of the lawman. You believe he is an accomplice of the shooter or maybe just an opportunistic gang banger and he is going to shoot the Deputy while distracted by the threat in his 12 o'clock. Are you legal to shoot? Legal or not, is it a good idea to come to the aide of a cop under fire? This requires group participation so please, everyone is welcome to opine.

 

[Rocketman]

Situation:

A Deputy Sheriff is taking fire from a trailer home (why is it always trailer homes). He has taken cover behind his open car door and is on the radio. You come upon the scene with your gun. As you approach from behind the Deputy you see a man crawling through the brush with a rifle to an ambush position on the Deputy. He is pointing the rifle in the direction of the lawman. You believe he is an accomplice of the shooter or maybe just an opportunistic gang banger and he is going to shoot the Deputy while distracted by the threat in his 12 o'clock. Are you legal to shoot? Legal or not, is it a good idea to come to the aide of a cop under fire? This requires group participation so please, everyone is welcome to opine.

I keep an AR15 in the trunk of my car because I drive by an indoor range on the way to work and often stop by for an unscheduled shoot. I would help the cop if I thought I could do so without being shot. (shot by the Deputy or by the guy in the weeds who may be a bad guy or may be a cop or good guy) I would do this legal or not because it's the right thing to do. (To your point)

 

[wink]

II would help the cop if I thought I could do so without being shot. (shot by the Deputy or by the guy in the weeds who may be a bad guy or may be a cop or good guy) I would do this legal or not because it's the right thing to do. (To your point)

No, that was not my point. I guess I wasn't clear. What would you do? What actions, if any would you take? Do not weasel. Are you going to do something or just observe? You have all the information the armed citizen had in the real world case. I have personal knowledge of it. Don't talk laws here. You are legally in possession of a weapon that will do the job. Tic Toc, Tic Toc. The Deputy is taking fire. You don't see help coming. The guy in the brush is raising his rifle. Will you act? Tic Toc.

Anyone else willing to be a hero?

 

[Rocketman]

No, that was not my point. I guess I wasn't clear. What would you do? What actions, if any would you take? Do not weasel. Are you going to do something or just observe? You have all the information the armed citizen had in the real world case. I have personal knowledge of it. Don't talk laws here. You are legally in possession of a weapon that will do the job. Tic Toc, Tic Toc. The Deputy is taking fire. You don't see help coming. The guy in the brush is raising his rifle. Will you act? Tic Toc.

Anyone else willing to be a hero?

LOL I wasn't weaseling. I was late for work.

(Wink I don't claim to be a LEO and this smells like an ambush of course but I'm a Marine so what the hell. I'll bite.)

If the deputy is about to take fire from the grassy knoll I'd shoot the bad guy thru the head. Years ago I mentally made peace with the idea of killing a man just because my country didn't agree with his. I assume I could pull the trigger but I've never done it so I don't know for sure. And yes if I was wrong it would be horrible. But like you said tic toc........

 

[wink]

LOL I wasn't weaseling. I was late for work.

(Wink I don't claim to be a LEO and this smells like an ambush of course but I'm a Marine so what the hell. I'll bite.)

What, putting work ahead of an internet debate? The Man owns you!

You don't have to be a LEO here. If you go out and about with a gun on your person or are determined to use one in your car or home, then you need to think through scenarios like this. Now is the time to debate it, have fun. You are sitting in a nice comfortable chair in a climate controlled room without adrenaline rush, or fear. When it happens for real is not the time to run the decision tree for the first time.

So Rocketman has a pair and has taken a position. How about all the rest of you internet warriors. I'll tell you "the rest of the story" when we get some more opinions. If you have questions about the scenario, ask away. I know.

 

[Bevo16]

Boyd saved me a lot of typing.

I think that Flash has stolen wink's log-in.

As for this:

Situation:

A Deputy Sheriff is taking fire from a trailer home (why is it always trailer homes). He has taken cover behind his open car door and is on the radio. You come upon the scene with your gun. As you approach from behind the Deputy you see a man crawling through the brush with a rifle to an ambush position on the Deputy. He is pointing the rifle in the direction of the lawman. You believe he is an accomplice of the shooter or maybe just an opportunistic gang banger and he is going to shoot the Deputy while distracted by the threat in his 12 o'clock. Are you legal to shoot? Legal or not, is it a good idea to come to the aide of a cop under fire? This requires group participation so please, everyone is welcome to opine.

Having fun hosting your internet Aircraft Commander board? :sleep_125

...just waiting for someone to say "Sure, I'll shoot his brains out." so you can tell us that we just shot an off-duty cop.

I passed that board already. Thanks. Have fun in fantasy land.

 

[wink]

Having fun hosting your internet Aircraft Commander board? :sleep_125

...just waiting for someone to say "Sure, I'll shoot his brains out." so you can tell us that we just shot an off-duty cop.

I passed that board already. Thanks. Have fun in fantasy land.

No Board, no fantasy land. This happened. I present it as an exercise to help guys that have not thought through the reality (you wanted reality) of carrying a gun. All I want is an opinion on the best course of action and the justification. I am glad you have thought these things through. Maybe you can share your thoughts with folks that take carrying a gun seriously and want to learn from your deep thought and analysis.

I'll put you down for a no shoot decision. But you have not justified it or told us just what you would do short of shooting. Look at this as a table top FATS or judgmental shooting simulator. No real wrong answers if you can justify it.

 

[BigRed389]

That would be my plan. Do you have an opinion on the scenario above?

Keep your gun on the potential threat and call out for him to deconflict with the deputy. If he swings his gun at you, shoot. If he ignores you, shoot.

 

[Bevo16]

All I want is an opinion on the best course of action and the justification. I am glad you have thought these things through. Maybe you can share your thoughts with folks that take carrying a gun seriously and want to learn from your deep thought and analysis.

No time to play, I'll be to busy getting oats for your high horse.
[/funny line theft]

 

[nittany03]

I agree with Trader. If you wade in, you've turned a two-sided situation into a potential Mexican standoff. I'd prefer to leave those to Sergio Leone and Quentin Tarantino. How does the deputy know you're not trying to get the drop on him? If nothing else, you announce your presence to the rifleman AND hopefully warn the cop. Then, if the rifleman proceeds to sight in on you or the cop, fire away as someone's life is now in imminent danger.

 

[wink]

No time to play, I'll be to busy getting oats for your high horse.
[/funny line theft]

On closer inspection I believe your high horse is really an ass. And it flees the engagement.

 

[C420sailor]

I'd assist. I don't think I could live with myself if I stood there and watched the officer get killed.

That being said, I'd make it very well known that I'm there to assist. "Officer, I'm here to assist you!" and I would obviously be smart with my weapon. Keep it in the dirt or even holstered, if possible, until he acknowledges.

The armed guy in the weeds? He's a hostile until I'm convinced otherwise. I'd sight him up and challenge him. If he flags myself or the officer, I'm firing.

That's just what I'd do, not saying it's right or wrong.

 

[snake020]

No, that was not my point. I guess I wasn't clear. What would you do? What actions, if any would you take? Do not weasel. Are you going to do something or just observe? You have all the information the armed citizen had in the real world case. I have personal knowledge of it. Don't talk laws here. You are legally in possession of a weapon that will do the job. Tic Toc, Tic Toc. The Deputy is taking fire. You don't see help coming. The guy in the brush is raising his rifle. Will you act? Tic Toc.

Anyone else willing to be a hero?

My answer depends on which state I'm in.

If I'm in California, sadly I will not be helping anyone. Although cops are friendlier to me in general back home, given that my CCW is no good there, they don't trust the average citizen to have a gun, the attitude on weapons in general and the recent CA supreme court ruling on good samaritan actions, I'm not risking civil and criminal penalties. If I'm in a state where armed citizens are more accepted by law enforcement and my CCW is good there such as FL or GA, I'll point my weapon at the shady character with the rifle and yell at him to slowly drop his weapon or identify himself as a LEO. If his finger goes to the trigger or he swings towards at me, I'll defend the deputy and be covered as any reasonable person in that situation would have taken the same action in defense of another.

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Why is the officer "taking cover" (taking concealment?) behind a door in the first place? He is probably already shot.

I think most people would agree the proper COA would be to take control of what part of the situation you can - tell the guy in the weeds to put his hands in the air and do whatever your intuition and training allows you to IOT ensure he is not a threat. If he threatens someones life, then deadly force is to be used.

If he is NOT a threat, he should comply in some way shape or form with you (esp. if you have a gun on him).

If, as the 2nd reading of your scenario led me to believe, he is already aiming in on the cop, then I would probably shoot w/out warning.
--
By simply responding to this thread I feel strangely dirty, like I am suddenly transforming into this kid:

 

[HeloBubba]

I'd assist. I don't think I could live with myself if I stood there and watched the officer get killed.

That being said, I'd make it very well known that I'm there to assist. "Officer, I'm here to assist you!" and I would obviously be smart with my weapon. Keep it in the dirt or even holstered, if possible, until he acknowledges.

The armed guy in the weeds? He's a hostile until I'm convinced otherwise. I'd sight him up and challenge him. If he flags myself or the officer, I'm firing.

This would be my response to the situation as well.