Wink's CCW Murder Board

[A4sForever]

....Situation: A Deputy Sheriff is taking fire from a trailer home (why is it always trailer homes).....etc., etc. ....

If I am perceiving an imminent threat to the Deputy (or indirectly in this case -- to myself) I would take the shot.

Tic-toc-tic-toc .... can't wait for a tornado to take out the trailer, can we??

When I was living in Texas -- there was a case that involved a motorist driving by a situation wherein an individual had a Texas Dept of Public Safety (DPS) trooper down on his knees and was holding him w/ the troopers own pistol. The motorist stopped about 50-60 yards (?) away, took his rifle down from it's rear-window rack (most pickup trucks in Texas are more heavily armed than some Third World Countries) ... whereupon the individual shot the DPS trooper, immediately followed by the motorist shooting (and killing) the assailant, who turned out to have a significant criminal history.

The fallout?? The motorist was told by the local DA and authorities: "Don't do that anymore .... "

Gotta' love Texas sometimes ... :cowboy_12

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Why would they tell him not to do that anymore?

Why wasn't it "Good job"

 

[nittany03]

Sooooooo, wink . . .

You've had some people pony up. Now what's the actual story. Did half of us "kill" an off-duty SWAT sniper or a crackhead?

 

[Bevo16]

On closer inspection I believe your high horse is really an ass. And it flees the engagement.

No, if I was going to be an ass, I would have made fun of your "combat aviator" lines and referenced your S-3 background!

 

[wink]

True story. Deputy was taking cover behind a door because it was all he had. He is a county mounty, don't alway have better cover then what you rode in on. The angles actually put the engine block in good position. He was not injured in the encounter. Our armed citizen did not think to call out a warning to the deputy or have the rifleman ID himself. I think those were good calls. The rifleman was pointing his weapon toward the Deputy but aiming over him at the threat. The armed citizen was going to shoot and would have been OK according to state law. Luckily just before the trigger press the rifleman looked over his shoulder, saw the armed citizen, waved him off and produced a badge. Yes he was an off duty Deputy, SWAT, with a take home car and rifle. He heard the call on the radio and responded. He never got a shot. Bad guy offed himself in the trailer. Shooting the off duty cop would have been legal, and the armed citizen almost did so. Legal or not he would have had a hard time dealing with shooting, not just an innocent man, but a cop there to help. Not shooting was justifiable for some good reasons. Many of you came up with a better solution. Legal and safer. Thanks for playing. Gunman in a resturant during my lunch, anyone?

 

[H60Gunner]

Situation:

A Deputy Sheriff is taking fire from a trailer home (why is it always trailer homes). He has taken cover behind his open car door and is on the radio. You come upon the scene with your gun. As you approach from behind the Deputy you see a man crawling through the brush with a rifle to an ambush position on the Deputy. He is pointing the rifle in the direction of the lawman.

Lot's of variables here not explained, but here's my cut.

Is he in a position to shoot the deputy ie clear line of fire? "In the direction" wouldn't make me start sending rounds down range. I would probably perceive the guy in the bushes as a friendly, don't think a dirtbag would waste his time trying to get into a good firing position.

Showing up in the middle of chaos with a wep in your hand is going to complicate things for the deputy for sure, I'd keep it holstered. But my perception could change 2 mili-seconds later..... If the deputy sees/hears you coming up behind him with a weapon in your hand he may take you under gunpoint and instruct you to drop it. Now you're screwed if the dude in the bushes is a shitbag and decides to engage.

Legal or not, is it a good idea to come to the aide of a cop under fire? This requires group participation so please, everyone is welcome to opine.

Depends on the situation. If said deputy is in trouble, ie wounded hell yes. If he is under cover, not down, and the calvary is on the way, steer clear.

Dammit Wink you could have waited for me.....

 

[A4sForever]

.... yadda, yadda, yadda .... Thanks for playing. Gunman in a resturant during my lunch, anyone?

Soooooooo ... waiting for the tornado to take out the trailer (as they always do ... ) wasn't the textbook solution ???

Gunman?? Lunch?? If it's Luby's Cafeteria @ Killeen, TX ... I missed that one by about 5 months. Which is why I maintain "don't ever tell me 'it' can't happen to YOU ... "

Luby's massacre - Wiki

 

[picklesuit]

So...My theory is this...it is better to make a decision and do something than be a helpless bystander...that decision may be wrong, it may be right, but at least you MAKE A FUCKING DECISION...if you are not armed, you have no opportunity to even make the decision...I think the whole point of the argument is whether you are willing to protect yourself, your family, and the community at large...If I perceive one of my fellow citizens to be in danger and my inaction will place them in further danger I will act to defend that person...and I am willing to accept the consequences...

Now, on to this bullshit hypothetical (why any sane person would ever willingly blunder into answering a hypothetical is beyod me) you have yet to offer all of the variables...Why would I believe this person is a "gangbanger/ambusher"/ you have already taken that variable out of the discussion. How is said person dressed? Are there other cop cars? What is he carrying? What is an "ambush" position?

If I walk up and see a guy dressed like :

I may have to question his motives...

But if I see a Black Crown Vic. with a guy by it dressed like:

I might take a second look before pulling the trigger...

Wink, it is people with your mindset that leads to the inaction of normally responsible citizens in this country. You are more worried about lawsuits, technicalities, and the second guessing than just fucking doing SOMETHING...

So to wade into this hypothetical..I " believe he is an accomplice of the shooter or maybe just an opportunistic gang banger and he is going to shoot the Deputy while distracted by the threat in his 12 o'clock"
and I have the means to stop him? Goddamn right I will stop him...I think the ideas of several others here are valid...Maintain weapon control (aim at dude in bush)... analyze the situation ("Drop it")...take the proper action (either start raining hot lead down on ambush guy, or start raining hot lead down on trailer with bad dude in side) and deal with the consequences of my actions later.

I never aim at someone I don't fully intend to shoot...the same applies here.

Pickle

(damn computer held the post...I wrote it back around 1700 and just sent it now...)

 

[wink]

... words
(damn computer held the post...I wrote it back around 1700 and just sent it now...)

All valid points. Since this posted late, I am guessing you now know this wasn't a BS hypothetical. You knew everything the armed citizen did.

 

[wink]

Wink, it is people with your mindset that leads to the inaction of normally responsible citizens in this country. You are more worried about lawsuits, technicalities, and the second guessing than just fucking doing SOMETHING...

I don't worry about lawsuits. If I need a lawyer that wins shooting lawsuits all I have to do is nudge the women next to me in the morning. I don't worry about technicalities because I know them like you know your EPs. If there is a problem, see the first sentence. I do, however, believe that taking some other action short of shooting is not doing nothing. I don't think you meant to imply that "doing something" means shooting. Sometimes being a good witness is the best course of action. That is doing something.

 

[rare21]

all i'm gonna say is if i'm fighting for my life or for my gun and i'm out alone in the boonies with no backup around for miles and joe CCW citizen pulls up and kills the scumbag or helps me at least subdue him, he or she wont have to buy another beer for the rest of their life.

 

[wink]

all i'm gonna say is if i'm fighting for my life or for my gun and i'm out alone in the boonies with no backup around for miles and joe CCW citizen pulls up and kills the scumbag or helps me at least subdue him, he or she wont have to buy another beer for the rest of their life.

A couple years ago in my city a cop was shot during a traffic stop. Hit in the arm and leg, if I recall. The cop was down on the sidewalk returning fire. This was an industrial area where there was very little foot traffic. But a guy (unarmed) in an office heard the shots, saw the downed officer, ran across a large open parking lot during the gun battle and went straight for the cop. Just before he got to the officer the cop put the suspect down. At the direction of the officer the citizen conducted a magazine exchange for the cop, made a 999 call on the radio, and removed the suspects gun from his reach. He then tended to the cops wounds while the officer kept the suspect covered. They both got medals from the city, and remain good friends.

I know of two occasions where armed citizens came to the aid of officers under fire in my metro area. I also know of a case where the armed homeowner was shot by police in his home when they mistook him for the armed suspect they were chasing in his neighborhood.

 

[exhelodrvr]

The first action should be verbal, without a raised weapon. Too much likelihood of the policeman perceiving you as a threat, or the second individual being a policeman, and perceiving you as a threat. The response of those two individuals would determine what you do next.

Some of you said that if the second gunman trained the weapon on you, you would fire - but you hadn't even determined whether or not he was a policeman. That is why your first action should be verbal only.

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Some of you said that if the second gunman trained the weapon on you, you would fire - but you hadn't even determined whether or not he was a policeman. That is why your first action should be verbal only.

You can impress everyone in heaven with your story about how you made extra sure to give a verbal warning to the guy who was training a weapon on you.

 

[wink]

You can impress everyone in heaven with your story about how you made extra sure to give a verbal warning to the guy who was training a weapon on you.

I don't think that is what exhelodrvr meant. In the circumstance at hand, where the rifleman does not know you are there, verbalize is the first option. The reference to simply shooting if the guy raise the weapon at you was in the case of those that simply answered the scenario by stating they would wait until the rifleman pointed the gun at the Deputy or the citizen, then shot. I don't think exhelodrvr meant you have to take a bullet because you didn't have time to verbalize. But I am sure he will answer for himself.