OT, but just wanted to say that's the first order/instruction/message I have ever read that was written that well.
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ACLU vs. USNA
- Thread starter MiG15
- Start date
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OT, but just wanted to say that's the first order/instruction/message I have ever read that was written that well.
Missing the point. The point isn't that their fears of being discovered were unfounded. The point is that their fear of retaliation for having different religious beliefs (or a lack thereof) were unfounded - in fact, this very point is a matter of DoD policy and Federal law and was reiterated to them at least once every year during EEO/CMEO GMT and was included on every contract they signed.
1) Non-denominational prayers, as I stated earlier, always end up being non-denominationally (judeo-)christian. While this might please the majority of servicemembers, it excludes a significant portion.
2) I'm not a USNA grad, so I'm not familiar with the tradition. However, if a mid is required to be at the noon meal, and there is a command-sponsored prayer at the meal, then the mid is thereby forced (by threat of disciplinary action) to participate in the prayer. Even though he/she may not have to bow or speak the prayer, it sends the "Team j.c." message that the command is religious.
sticks and stones... I will never be ashamed of choosing to think, and live by a rational philosophy. It's as normal for atheists to be offended by faith-based thought as it is for faith-based thinkers to be offended by other faiths or atheists.
Agreed. The Chaplain Corps is an invaluable component of the military. The counselling and church service they provide improve morale, thereby helping the overall mission. These benefits are gained without the need of command-sponsored prayer.
Our primary mission is support and defense of the Consitution; the military should not engage in activity that is counter to consitutional ideals by endorsing religion at command events.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Stop thinking about yourself. Start thinking about the people you lead, and their needs. First, there is no disciplinary action if you do or do not participate in a prayer. Presence does not equal participation. You have to be present, you don't have to participate. If 99.9% of the people you're around want to/need to/are willing to participate, then it should probably be in place to fulfill their needs. However, that doesn't mean that you need to or have to participate. Show me ONE CASE of an NJP involving someone refusing to pray. ONE. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find it. I'd be willing to bet that no such case exists.
Chaplains are more than willing, through lay-readers to address every possible religious need. For those that don't have a religious need, they are willing to offer all forms of counseling (they all have to go through generic counseling classes). I don't see the issue. Yes, you may not agree - but look at 90% of the military (and probably 90% of the men/women you lead). Again, stop thinking of yourself.
And if you think there's disciplinary action involved, you are sorely mistaken.
I would hardly call the type of basic behavior that's lead to the Inquisition, the Crusades, and Radical Islamic Jihad as "normal". The ACLU's behavior is exactly the same thing, just with lawyers instead of knights. At the end of the day, its all about bending everyone else to your will in the name of God/Allah/nothing.
True freedom of religion is being allowed to practice however you choose, recognizing how unique the opportunity to do so is, and returning the favor to society by allowing your fellow man the courtesy to practice however he sees fit.
Despite my views...I think this is spot on. I am not an Officer, but I hope to be one, and my sailors needs would come first. I could sit there and listen about Jesus all day if these people put forth the maximum effort day in and day out and a religious forum is what they wanted and needed. I would even go to be there for/with them. I might even bring some sliced bbq brisket for the pot luck!
This would show to the sailors that I am here to support THEM..not the religion.
That definitely isn't kosher (pun not intended) in any case, and I do wonder how you can make sure chaplains do respect the religious traditions (or lack thereof) of all present. I just fear that there may be an opposite trend going on in the military today. My father forwarded me an article a month or so ago (I will try to find it) where a Muslim Army chaplain who was in charge of a bunch of other chaplains in Iraq was effectively trying to prevent Christian chaplains from teaching essential Christian teachings within the context of their own religious services! It must be difficult for a chaplain, regardless of his faith background, to balance the spiritual needs of the command he's serving while preserving the integrity of his own worship practices.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
It is difficult, and I have met some chaplains that are good at separating the two, and I have met chaplains that are bad at it. Most of the chaplains that I have met however, are more concerned with providing what their soldiers/sailors/airman/Marines need. My last chaplain was a Baptist. He coordinated with some of the locals during our exercises and got the Muslim Marines involved in prayer service with fellow Muslims. He didn't judge them, he just knew it had to happen. Most chaplains care about you, your religious/non-religious needs, whether you like to admit it or not.
I'd be interested to hear if scoob, phrog, Bogey, and everyone else would be perfectly ok if the USNA Chaplain was a Muslim and conducted mealtime prayers praying to Allah, and saying "Allah akbar" during the prayer... We're not talking just one time... but every meal. Would you feel comfortable? What about a Wiccan leading prayers praying to Mother Earth and different Gods/Goddesses? Would this be ok?
I'm just asking because it seems that the majority always thinks the minority should just let things slide and go with the flow.
I'm not trying to be confrontational (beleive me, I know maybe it comes out that way in my writing... but I'm just not that great penning feelings to paper). I am curious though.
I'm just asking because it seems that the majority always thinks the minority should just let things slide and go with the flow.
I'm not trying to be confrontational (beleive me, I know maybe it comes out that way in my writing... but I'm just not that great penning feelings to paper). I am curious though.
Fixed.
Did you read what I wrote about the value of the Chaplain Corps? Church services for those that want them are great, but I'm not going to ignore the needs of a sizable minority for the sake of public prayer. You start thinking about the non-christian people you lead.
I would bet there would be disciplinary action, if one refused to come to lunch until after the prayer, or walked out during the prayer.
I think you're probably right on that point, my mistake. My issue with this practice is that it is command-sponsored and thereby effectively command-endorsed. The command prayer can never be fully inclusive. What about the buddhists, etc.? They don't want to hear about Jesus or even God over the 1MC. And just because a chaplain excludes the word "jesus", it doesn't make the prayer non-christian or all-inclusive.
If these events were 5 minutes of silence for everyone to contemplate or pray as they saw fit, it would be fine. But it's not silence, it's a christian prayer made by a christian leader in a public setting or over the 1MC.
1) Check your numbers.
2) By "willing", are you including those who would prefer not to have the command prayer, but just don't complain?
Fixed.
^^ What he said.
For clarification purposes: my avatar refers to the "I Believe" button people joke about pushing in flight school. While I guess it applies here, that is not its intent.
If I was doing an exchange tour in an Arabic country (Ya, I know...) and they had prayers for the Muslim majority, I wouldn't mind. I'd stfu and go with the flow.
Your point is moot because the MAJORITY is christian. There would never be a scenario where a Muslim Chaplain would be leading a Muslim prayer to a bunch of christians. MAJORITY RULES.
When I've seen/brought a non-Jew to Synagogue, they don't stand up and declare shenanigans on the Rabbi. They STFU and go with the flow.
When you are the minority, you should just STFU, be respectful, and go with the flow!
When the US Navy becomes a Muslim, Wiccan or Jewish majority, I will have NO PROBLEM sitting through a prayer for the aforementioned religions.
First paragraph: Not the point. No shit you'd be respectful in a foreign country.
Second: Really? Interesting... when I was on the Joint Staff, we had a Muslim chaplain lead prayer before an official function (just once). He was completely respectful and tailored his benediction as non-denominational (he did say the word "God", but that's the only 'religious" word he used). The majority of the audience was most likely Christian.
Third: Ok, this is a completely invalid point. Your friend is coming to a RELIGIOUS house of worship by choice and as a guest. Completely irrelevant argument.
So....... Galileo, et al. should have STFU, because the Earth really is flat and at the center of the universe.
Damnit, I've been trying to avoid being a smartass in this thread, but you went and posted that bit of genius.
OK, I understand that science and religion were at odds in Galileo's time, but honestly... I'm talking about religious accommodation TODAY. I'm not talking about keeping back scientific progress in the name of religion. I'm talking about not being "That guy" and making EVERYONE else accomodate you when you're 1 in 30. If everyone is christian and you're not, just let them have their thing. When there's 5 out of 30 or 10 out of 30, then start thinking about making some other accomodations. But let's look at the numbers here...
FTR, I AM the one who has a right to be pissed in this case, and I think it's nonsense. So figure that one out....
I would like to point out once again, because this should be obvious. If you don't like how it is done at the school, you don't have to choose to be there. Pick a different school or a different career. I think some traditions should overrule the comfort level of a few, to please the many.
I think this falls under the lines of people in schools not wanting to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Is it really that big of a deal to stand up and say it, or are people really that anal retentive that uttering the word "Under GOD" is like having someone $hit in their mouth and ruin their day.
Jeez, there's no hazing, no God, what's next are they going to allow women in the military or any of the military schools?
(joking of course)
I think this falls under the lines of people in schools not wanting to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Is it really that big of a deal to stand up and say it, or are people really that anal retentive that uttering the word "Under GOD" is like having someone $hit in their mouth and ruin their day.
Jeez, there's no hazing, no God, what's next are they going to allow women in the military or any of the military schools?
(joking of course)- Status