SCOTUS affirms gun rights in historic decision

[DangerousDan]

Threadjack Guns are great heritage and heirlooms for family and appreciative American citizens (think CMP). Have fun shooting.

I agree with you. Ours is our Japanese Type 99 in 7.7 x 58mm Arisaka rifle which my Grandfather brought back from Okinawa. We still shoot it but we don't have a lot of ammo for it. Want to start reloading the ammo but its the same story as the garand, no time.

 

[Random8145]

Glad that the Supreme Court protected our Second Amendment right, but it was close, a 5-4 decision; four of those Supreme Court justices were going to rule it was not an individual right! We were really lucky this case was done when it was. If Senator Barack Obama is elected President and is able to appoint two to three new justices during his term, I have a feeling the Court will lean very far to the Left, and would've ruled this a collective right.

 

[statesman]

Outdated only because citizens are now incapable of mounting any sort of resistance to the government. Any revolution nowadays would require the militia to be the actual military turning against the system.

Don't be so naive. Familiarize yourself with the following:
1.) Red Dawn
2.) The current insurgency in Iraq
3.) The current situation in Afghanistan
4.) The Soviet experience in Afghanistan

Insurgent movements with light arms can be extremely effective against a modern mechanized army. They might not be able to win the war in and of themselves but they can be effective.

 

[HH-60H]

Don't be so naive. Familiarize yourself with the following:
1.) Red Dawn
2.) The current insurgency in Iraq
3.) The current situation in Afghanistan
4.) The Soviet experience in Afghanistan

Insurgent movements with light arms can be extremely effective against a modern mechanized army. They might not be able to win the war in and of themselves but they can be effective.

You accuse Jackass of being naive, yet your first example is a movie.

 

[statesman]

You accuse Jackass of being naive, yet your first example is a movie.

A damn good one at that.... More of a joke than anything... but something to think about no less. I can remember several times on gun forums seeing the argument 'times have changed, guns can't defend against tanks, the 2nd amendment is therefore outdated'. The inevitable response was always "Haven't you ever seen Red Dawn?!"

So while the first example was more in jest... the other examples I think are valid. These are situation where a non-industrialized insurgent force gave a fully mechanized and modernized military a run for their money.

My intent was to illustrate that the argument 'we should not worry about 2nd amendment rights simply because we can not fight tanks with deer rifles' is asinine

 

[MrSaturn]

/threadjack

My intent was to illustrate that the argument 'we should not worry about 2nd amendment rights simply because we can not fight tanks with deer rifles' is asinine

I would suggest talking about Che Guevera instead of Red Dawn next time

While I couldnt find the image of tank traps from the book I did find a similar one. In particular the bottom right image. All you need is a shovel really.

/endThreadjack

 

[Flash]

Don't be so naive. Familiarize yourself with the following:
1.) Red Dawn
2.) The current insurgency in Iraq
3.) The current situation in Afghanistan
4.) The Soviet experience in Afghanistan

Insurgent movements with light arms can be extremely effective against a modern mechanized army. They might not be able to win the war in and of themselves but they can be effective.

I would not call anti-tank missiles and explosively formed penetrator IED's 'light' weapons. You need to learn more a little bit more about what you cited before you use it in your argument. They are very poor examples when considering what is legal in this country.

A damn good one at that.... More of a joke than anything... but something to think about no less.......The inevitable response was always "Haven't you ever seen Red Dawn?!"

Don't be an idiot like them, citing a piece of Hollywood fiction to even remotely back up your argument.

I would suggest talking about Che Guevera instead of Red Dawn next time

Che Guevera ended up dead after two failed insurgencies, your point?

 

[wink]

I would not call anti-tank missiles and explosively formed penetrator IED's 'light' weapons. You need to learn more a little bit more about what you cited before you use it in your argument. They are very poor examples when considering what is legal in this country.

True enough, re legal weapons vis most effective weapons in those conflicts. But the weapons we can legally possess make obtaining the weapons you cite possible through guerrilla operations where small arms are effective. And if IEDs and RPGs are the reason for the success of insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan, then it is also true that without small arms in support of those weapons there would be no successes despite possession of those heavier, more potent weapons. Weapons like those legally obtainable in the US ARE essential to any armed insurgent movement.

 

[Zissou]

True enough, re legal weapons vis most effective weapons in those conflicts. But the weapons we can legally possess make obtaining the weapons you cite possible through guerrilla operations where small arms are effective. And if IEDs and RPGs are the reason for the success of insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan, then it is also true that without small arms in support of those weapons there would be no successes despite possession of those heavier, more potent weapons. Weapons like those legally obtainable in the US ARE essential to any armed insurgent movement.

Correct me if I am wrong but those weapons are Light by definition. Their effective employment is good tactics and doesnt make them Heavy. None of those weapons are crew served nor require fire direction.

A Light weapon is a weapon organic to Light maneuver elements not requiring targeting and employment direction from higher-authority. Typically these weapons maneuver at the Fire Team level. I dont have FM 6-20-10 in front of me, but Im pretty sure thats on the money.

If these things interest you? The book The Last 100 Yards is the NCO field leadership hymnal.

And to Wink's point conducting U/W in a non-permissive environment requires sound security. Security in U/W comes in two flavors: Stealth and Armed Security. The insurgents have been masters of Stealth. Only the indigs saw them most of the time. And security? They used murder and threats of murder to force entry into homes and ensure that indigs wont betray them to the enemy (us). All of this was done with small arms. Most often the Ak-47.

 

[wink]

Correct me if I am wrong but those weapons are Light by definition. Their effective employment is good tactics and doesnt make them Heavy. None of those weapons are crew served nor require fire direction.

You are, of course ,right (you would know better then me in any case). I used the term to follow Flash's lead. I am sure he used it not in the true military sence but as most civilians would view those weapons.

 

[Zissou]

Well I was disagreeing with Flash. But I try not to draw his direct attention too much. I dont like losing and the man is a wordsmith.

I agree with you completely. And so does doctrine.

Three dudes with guns, money, and charm can acquire the tools of war from inside the enemies chest. Charm can be interchanged with brutality if thats your cup of tea.

The most common charge in IED's during 2004 was the 155MM HE round. Procured through stealth and force from ASP's that were being guarded by coalition forces.

Small teams of badguys using wit and firearms to get capture the big toys.

Small Arms are the material foundation of any U/W campaign.

 

[lmnop]

Three dudes with guns, money, and charm can acquire the tools of war from inside the enemies chest. Charm can be interchanged with brutality if thats your cup of tea.

The most common charge in IED's during 2004 was the 155MM HE round. Procured through stealth and force from ASP's that were being guarded by coalition forces.

Small teams of badguys using wit and firearms to get capture the big toys.

Small Arms are the material foundation of any U/W campaign.

How true. I think another aspect that's being discounted here is the ease of obtaining precursors for homemade explosives. The ebb and flow of the 155 supply chain could often be seen in the use of bulk HME used in creative configurations to cause the same effect. In a country with strict controls on explosives which doesn't have an abundance of ERW, it isn't terribly difficult to obtain the materials to manufacture viable devices. Thanks to the information age, it'll take about two minutes to find the recipe you want on the internets.

 

[JIMC5499]

How true. I think another aspect that's being discounted here is the ease of obtaining precursors for homemade explosives. The ebb and flow of the 155 supply chain could often be seen in the use of bulk HME used in creative configurations to cause the same effect. In a country with strict controls on explosives which doesn't have an abundance of ERW, it isn't terribly difficult to obtain the materials to manufacture viable devices. Thanks to the information age, it'll take about two minutes to find the recipe you want on the internets.

Problem is, how many people could follow the recipe without blowing themselves up. They have pretty much weeded basic Chemistry out of the schools. Even at the college level most of my Chem classes were pure theory with little or no hands on.

 

[statesman]

I would not call anti-tank missiles and explosively formed penetrator IED's 'light' weapons. You need to learn more a little bit more about what you cited before you use it in your argument. They are very poor examples when considering what is legal in this country.

Its been hammered into the ground at this point, but I disagree that IED's and Rocket Propelled grenades are the only thing the insurgency is using to cause problems for our industrialized force on the ground. Those weapons get a great deal of attention because of how effective they are but there have been plenty of times were an old fashioned firefight has broken out with M-16s going against Ak-47s.

And sometimes its the small arms which make it possible to acquire heaver explosives through the raiding of ammunition depots etc.

From my study of insurgency it is rarely the insurgency in and of itself that makes winning a war of that nature possible. Usually the insurgency has to gain enough momentum and credibility to encourage 3rd parties with more advanced weaponry to begin contributing (US in Afghanistan v USSR), but in the beginning it starts with a well armed group of politically motivated individuals.

Don't be an idiot like them, citing a piece of Hollywood fiction to even remotely back up your argument.

Again it was said highly in jest... maybe not worded correctly or executed well. Im not so stupid as to honestly cite a Hollywood creation as evidence for the success rate of insurgent movements.

I will say that the movie does present an idea which in this country we are not accustomed to thinking about. That is warfare on our ground. With the exception of a small island in Alaska during WWII no US soil has been occupied by an enemy force for roughly 200 years.

 

[A4sForever]

....Weapons like those legally obtainable in the US ARE essential to any armed insurgent movement.

How true ... I guess everyone's overlooking Malaya, Kenya, South Africa, Rhodesia, Angola, Nigeria (Biafra), Vietnam (what? where's THAT??) ... just to name a few examples, post-Korea.

A dedicated "insurgent", no matter what color his flag, can go a long way w/ a rifle, some ammo, and a bag of rice.

This can't be news to anyone ...

If these things interest you? The book The Last 100 Yards is the NCO field leadership hymnal.

Good book; it's been read, reread, and in my library for years. It's sometimes available at the NEX for those so inclined ...