BINGO profile...

[ben4prez]

gents-

was wondering if any of you had an answer to this question: Is a Bingo profile based on max range or max endurance?

I should probably know this seeing as ive been winged for nearly 6 months now, and my intuition says range, but an LSO told my roommate it was max endurance, hence my current uncertainty. Ive looked in NATOPs (perhaps not hard enough...) and searched the ever-reliable world wide web, to no avail...perhaps someone could fill me in...

If it is indeed endurance, ill push the "I believe" button, but wouldnt you want to maximize the range you could fly if you no kidding had to execute a BINGO for say, weather reasons, or say, endless boltering during CQ alone and scared in the middle of the Atlantic?

Thanks for any input!

 

[skidkid]

ummm if you are trying to get back to your field/boat it is range. If you are there and waiting to land it is endurance. Do what you must to not run out of gas.
Somewhere someone is weeping for the future.

 

[FLYTPAY]

Range....that is why your BINGO charts are according to distance. If you need max endurance, you fly the max endurance AOA....BINGO is the minimum fuel it takes to get from Point A to Point B with the reserve defined in your NATOPS.

 

[ben4prez]

thanks...thats what i thought. ;-)

 

[Nose]

The simple answer is Range.

It's not PURELY max range, but it is more range then endurance.

Bingo gives you:
A safe climb (Ask F-18 guys about their profile)
Distance
An idle descent
A certain amount of "leftover" depending on IMC

We "experimented" extensively with this during WW Counterdrug in the early 90s. If you use NATOPS performance charts you can do better, but they don't provide for a "comfortable" idle descent.

Nose
PS NEVER listen to LSOs. (Unless they are talking on the radio)

 

[badger16]

Nose
PS NEVER listen to LSOs. (Unless they are talking on the radio)

...so looking at your profile which says you are an LSO, does that mean we shouldn't listen to your post???:icon_tong

 

[Nose]

Caught me! Pay no attention to the man on the white computer...

 

[HuggyU2]

Since you will probably fly at some point with USAF squadrons, it appears we view it a touch differently,... or I just misunderstand what's been posted.
"Bingo" for the USAF means the point at which the profile is terminated, and RTB is accomplished, via "prebriefed parameters". That leaves us some flexibility in determining it.
Altitude: maybe, after coming off of a low level, I don't want to try to climb all the way to my max range altitude. Maybe I want to return VFR at 10,500'.
Speed: usually I use max range, or close to it. However, the situation may deem otherwise.
Descent: where I've flown, it's a fairly normal descent. Some recovery fields mandate a straight in. Others, we can go to initial. Also, if I'm dragging a 4-ship through the WX, planning idle power is unpractical with 3 wingman in fingertip (or "parade", in Navy speak). Plus, hanging out until you can pull it to idle and glide home is often impractical from the perspective of ATC. Y'all don't have that problem at sea, I imagine.
Also, we (and probably you too) distinguish between our "normal recovery fuel" and "minimum fuel". If we start pushing close to minimum fuel, or at flight lead discretion, they can obviously begin using optimum altitude/airspeed/descent profiles to effect the RTB or divert. At that point, I'm usually starting to get ATC involved, whether getting direct, or even declaring "minimum" or "emergency" fuel.
But, getting back to "Bingo", my experience shows we generally use normal recovery procedures commensurate with the local area. Nothing extraordinary.

 

[Nose]

Bingo = emergency fuel

 

[HuggyU2]

Bingo = emergency fuel

That explains the big difference. Am I to understand that when you call "Bingo", you are now an emergency? Like, "roll the fire trucks and I get priority over everyone else"?

What do you call it in the Navy when you hit your prebriefed fuel state to knock it off and return home (equivalent of USAF Bingo)?
Do y'all use the term "Joker"?
Does the Navy differentiate between Emer Fuel and Min Fuel?

 

[Nose]

That explains the big difference. Am I to understand that when you call "Bingo", you are now an emergency? Like, "roll the fire trucks and I get priority over everyone else"?

Yes. If you "bingo" from the ship, you are expected to declare an emergency when you establish comms with ATC.

What do you call it in the Navy when you hit your prebriefed fuel state to knock it off and return home (equivalent of USAF Bingo)?
Do y'all use the term "Joker"?

Exactly.

Does the Navy differentiate between Emer Fuel and Min Fuel?

I never heard the term "Min Fuel" until I went to the airlines, but that may be a cummunity specific thing.

Nose's philosophy on "min fuel." Why take a chance? If you are at a point where you are that worried about gas, why not just declare an emergency? Emergencies are free and don't cost anything. That's not to say that I willy-nilly used the "E" word (3 or 4 times in 20 years) but hell, why let someone else put you in a box?

N

 

[HuggyU2]

Nose's philosophy on "min fuel." Why take a chance? If you are at a point where you are that worried about gas, why not just declare an emergency? Emergencies are free and don't cost anything. That's not to say that I willy-nilly used the "E" word (3 or 4 times in 20 years) but hell, why let someone else put you in a box?

I see your point, however "minimum fuel" is a specific term that keeps you from having to go from "everything's ok" to "holy smokes, approach, I'm an emergency". It let's ATC know you can't accept any "undue delay". It's not just a USAF or airline thing: it's found in AIM, para 5-5-15, and in the FAA Pilot Controller Glossary. I can't find the ICAO reference for it, but I believe they recognize it too.
I've only declared "Emergency Fuel" once. But, numerous times, as I began to start eyeing the fuel gage a touch more, I let Center know I was "Min Fuel, and didn't want to start down until 50 nm from the field." Now, the ball's in their court: they could force me down and make me declare emer fuel, in which case I'll stay high anyways (they've never forced that on me), or work with me and let me stay at altitude, which would allow me to land at a reasonable and safe fuel load.
I don't let it happen much, but when I do declare min fuel, Center/Approach has been very cooperative.

 

[mules83]

Back-in-the day during all that wonderful jet instrument training crap, we had to shoot min fuel and emergency fuel GCA's. A min fuel GCA meant you kept the jet clean till 30 sec prior to glideslope intercept. You got no special treatment and flew a normal box pattern. The jet wasn't wasting gas by being dirty on base and final. An emergency fuel gca got you the 30 sec gear/flap call plus direct vectors without delay to final with a lower/closer start. You would also configure the jet differently on an emergency fuel approach by only selecting half flaps and keeping the speed brakes in.

 

[kmac]

...words about min fuel

Concur, I've used "min fuel" with ATC simply to indicate that any delay would cause me to go emergency. It's just an SA builder for them.

And since we're talking about Bingo, let's all remember that there is a bingo fuel state, and a bingo profile. Although the two are interlinked, it may be confusing to describe each as "bingo."

In the C-2, our range on a bingo profile for single engine is a little bit further than for normal bingos. It's fun to ask the copilot if they would shut down a good engine just to save fuel.

 

[jmac12]

We use Joker/Bingo the same as the Air Force does when we are opperating from land bases. We will fight until bingo and then fly a normal profile home, to get home by SOP on deck fuel. Off the boat we use a ladder which is either built around a bingo (emergency profile) to a divert or passes available prior to hitting the tanker if there is no divert available. I would agrue that the bingo profile is a mix of both range and E. You burn a lot of gas getting high and fast and then make it up at altitude and on the back side in an idle descent.