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Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects
- Thread starter futrMarineBlueAngel
- Start date
TOPGUN History
Some new(?) history on TOPGUN:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-fighter-pilot-academy-set-up-by-British.html
I don't really know much about TOPGUN, but this is an interesting development.
Some new(?) history on TOPGUN:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-fighter-pilot-academy-set-up-by-British.html
I don't really know much about TOPGUN, but this is an interesting development.
The fact that they refer to the movie constantly should give you an idea of the in-depth research done for the article. This is the Daily Telegraph, not the Times of London.
I'll defer to the hoary old fighter dudes on here, but I'd say we have done and continue to do exchanges with the RAF and Fleet Air Arm, including instructors at the Weapons Schools and RAG's (e.g., I had RAF, RN, and RAAF instructors at 120 and there's pretty much always a RN Sea King or RAF AWACS guy on staff at CAEWWS). I'm sure there were Brits on staff at Mirimar Back In The Day, and I'm equally sure they made big contributions.
But the gist of the article - that the hapless Americans had to turn to the Royal Navy for help during Vietnam, that they showed us the way and we've been ungratefully ignoring their contributions out of spite or whatever since - is just silly. We've never had any problem acknowledging the Brits' contributions to Naval Aviation, not least the Ball and the angled deck.
I'll defer to the hoary old fighter dudes on here, but I'd say we have done and continue to do exchanges with the RAF and Fleet Air Arm, including instructors at the Weapons Schools and RAG's (e.g., I had RAF, RN, and RAAF instructors at 120 and there's pretty much always a RN Sea King or RAF AWACS guy on staff at CAEWWS). I'm sure there were Brits on staff at Mirimar Back In The Day, and I'm equally sure they made big contributions.
But the gist of the article - that the hapless Americans had to turn to the Royal Navy for help during Vietnam, that they showed us the way and we've been ungratefully ignoring their contributions out of spite or whatever since - is just silly. We've never had any problem acknowledging the Brits' contributions to Naval Aviation, not least the Ball and the angled deck.
Actually, the gist of the article is the book which makes these assertions. Regardless of how well (or not) the article is written, it's the "facts" in the book that are the new (to me) info that I thought was interesting. As far as presented in the article, there is no original research, it's all taken from the book.
What, this book?
http://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Squad...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237818875&sr=8-1
I'm curious what a book about British "top guns" launching a long distance strike in 1972 has to do with schooling those silly Americans in the late 1960's on ACM.
(BTW - I know you know all that about furreners at the Weapons Schools, -60H, I was just sayin' for the wannabes and students)
The article reminded me of a book report by some kid who hadn't really read the book. I had the feeling that the gist of the book was that there were Brits who helped stand up TOPGUN and they made big contributions. Which I didn't know, but it's not suprising at all. Then the article's author made the leap that somehow we Yanks have made an effort to keep it a secret...as proven by the fact that there are totally no Brits whatsoever in Mr Cruise's shirtless beach volleyball epic.
I'd like to read the book, but the article seemed pretty half-assed.
The article reminded me of a book report by some kid who hadn't really read the book. I had the feeling that the gist of the book was that there were Brits who helped stand up TOPGUN and they made big contributions. Which I didn't know, but it's not suprising at all. Then the article's author made the leap that somehow we Yanks have made an effort to keep it a secret...as proven by the fact that there are totally no Brits whatsoever in Mr Cruise's shirtless beach volleyball epic.
I'd like to read the book, but the article seemed pretty half-assed.
Aha, I got ya, I misunderstood.
Concur. Navy fighter community weren't babes in the woods. They had a longstanding history of FAGU training up through the F-8 Crusader community and Frank Ault deserves more credit than a couple of Brits on exchange. The first two pictures of instructors on the wall in TOPGUN spaces are Dan Pederson and Jim Ruliffson. It was those two foresighted DH/JO types at VF-121 (F-4 RAG) that began writing first lectures and leveraging the HAVE DRILL/DOUGHNUT experience to teach Dissimilar Air Combat to the F-4 Phantom community that was dominated by a night fighter/interceptor legacy.
Having A-4 Skyhawks nearby at Instrument RAG to serve as a surrogate for the numble MiG-17 was just as critical. TOPGUN has a rich legacy of working with exchange aircrews and visiting other countries. The two guys mentioned in the article no doubt were consulted, but hardly could be said to responsible for TOPGUN. CAPT Frank Ault and ADM Moorer deserve the lion's share of credit for that.
Sounds like someone reaching for their 15 minutes of fame late in life and press being UK-centric in their reporting.
^ What he said .....
And what HE said (below) is bullshit; he can't even get the time frame right:
"When British pilots arrived at Miramar airbase in California in the early 1960s the Americans were losing a large number of dogfights in their multi-million Phantom fighters to the enemy's relatively "cheap" MiG 21s."
I can't remember when the RN acquired their F-4K's, but the RAF didn't get their variants until the LATE '60's ... you do the math. Especially, as Fester pointed out; there were NO dirty pommy bastards in the volleyball sequence.
Q.E.D.
And what HE said (below) is bullshit; he can't even get the time frame right:
"When British pilots arrived at Miramar airbase in California in the early 1960s the Americans were losing a large number of dogfights in their multi-million Phantom fighters to the enemy's relatively "cheap" MiG 21s."
I can't remember when the RN acquired their F-4K's, but the RAF didn't get their variants until the LATE '60's ... you do the math. Especially, as Fester pointed out; there were NO dirty pommy bastards in the volleyball sequence.
Q.E.D.
The majority of those Mig-21 losses came in 67-68 and an American aircraft had not bagged a Mig in two years because of the bombing halt. The Navy bagged one in 70 then neither the AF or Navy scored again until 72. The article attempts to imply something at the end with that tidbit.
Exactly right on all points, HJ. Actually, I had to laugh at the gall and chutzpah of the article (and book - which I don't care to read). It is so self-servingly outrageous that it is almost funny.... almost.
While the Brits did come to Miramar, they did not come "in the early 1960s" nor were "Americans losing a large number of dogfights" at that time, as the article wrongly states.
Top Gun was initially set up and graduated its first class in 1969. IIRC, the Brits (and Lcdr. Lord) did not arrive until 1970. The original cadre of Top Gun instructors (already in place and well-established) were eager to draw from any source, input that would improve their training and tactics. Thus, several Brits were brought in to share ideas and tactics. Likewise, several MiG-killer Israeli pilots were brought in TAD about the same time for the same purpose - and I believe they contributed far more than the Brits did. (I know the Israeli pilots' tales, tactics, and actual gun-camera film were absolutely awesome!). From my perspective, the Brits could really drink, but the Israelis could really fly and fight.
But it was the Ault Report and Adm. Moorer as HJ says that gave the initial impetus for the school. And the prime input in setting up the training, tactics, and eventually the NFWS was the Have Drill/Have Doughnut exercises. A number of the original Top Gun instructors had actually flown these at the time, highly classified projects. Thus the school was setup by these men, and the lessons they had learned, more than any other input.... including the minor but welcome, Brit input.
It should be remembered that prior to that time, the F-4 was considered purely a high-speed, high-altitude interceptor. While the F-8 drivers maintained their dog fighting training and capabilities (mainly because the had a gun and the F-4 didn't), F-4 training was strictly intercept training -- no ACM and certainly, no DACM.
In fact on my first cruise aboard Midway, our F-4 ready room still had plumbing coming out of the deck by each reclining leather chair to hook up cooling air for the crews' high altitude, full pressure suits. (During the cruise, we had to hammer and chisel away these pipes so we could finally lay linoleum in our RR.)
Finally, although I met a few of the Brits, I don't know if I ever met Lcdr. Lord. But I believe he was the Brit who finagled a personal quote in our NATOPS introductory page. A little later after he left Miramar, at an AOM, the question was raised: "What the hell is a Brit quote doing in our NATOPS?" By special revision, it was quickly deleted.
If anyone wants the true story of the real, amazing individuals who set up Top Gun and changed Naval Aviation training for decades should read Wilcox's Scream of Eagles.
Greenhorn1
New Member
I should'nt get too worked up about it guys. After all the Telegraph is hardly a widely read paper in the UK. If the Brits on this occasion want to distort our history, who can blame them. We've certainly distorted theirs over the years, or thats how they percieve it.
1. U-571...Enigma machine in fact captured by Brit submarines.
2.Saving Private Ryan.....the elite 2nd "Das Reich" Panzer division was in fact engaged by the Brits
3.Great escape.....In fact purely an RAF escape
The list goes on ...
I've done an exchange posting in the UK and I have a great respect for their military and they have alot to be proud about.
1. U-571...Enigma machine in fact captured by Brit submarines.
2.Saving Private Ryan.....the elite 2nd "Das Reich" Panzer division was in fact engaged by the Brits
3.Great escape.....In fact purely an RAF escape
The list goes on ...
I've done an exchange posting in the UK and I have a great respect for their military and they have alot to be proud about.
No shit ??? Thanks for calming our fears w/ your first post -- especially about something that you know nothing about .... mate.
Your pommy examples = fictional depictions, all. What part of fiction vs. the facts of TOPGUN do you think we don't understand -- to the point of "getting too worked up" ??? You know; those of us who have actually been there ... ??? Bullshit is bullshit -- no matter which side of the Atlantic it's coming from ....Greenhorn1 said:
Really ??? Question: how 'come your profile location shows Boston while your posting IP and email address points to the U.K. .... hmmmmmm, Leigh???Greenhorn1 said:
Yeah, and if Montgomery had been given all the supplies, the war would have been over in Nov 1944.
Greenhorn1
New Member
No shit ??? Thanks for calming our fears w/ your first post -- especially about something that you know nothing about .... mate.
Your pommy examples = fictional depictions, all. What part of fiction vs. the facts of TOPGUN do you think we don't understand -- to the point of "getting too worked up" ??? You know; those of us who have actually been there ... ??? Bullshit is bullshit -- no matter which side of the Atlantic it's coming from ....
Really ??? Question: how 'come your profile location shows Boston while your posting IP and email address points to the U.K. .... hmmmmmm, Leigh???
Jesus, a chip on the other shoulder and you could be a well balanced individual
And since you ask, yes I'm in the UK at the moment cos my wife's British, thats why I think your attitude stinks.