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Blackwater guys on the rooftop in Najaf

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Brett327 said:
If there is one constant in the universe, it's Flash's uncanny ability to be liberal, paranoid, and wrong. :D Who loves ya, good buddy?

Brett

And who is constantly mean, grumpy and regularly lobbing hand grenades into the discussion, could it be......Brett :icon_wink ? At least we are both consistent :D . Music On!
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Flash said:
And who is constantly mean, grumpy and regularly lobbing hand grenades into the discussion, could it be......Brett :icon_wink ? At least we are both consistent :D . Music On!
Who's grumpy? I'm all smiles, baby! :D

Brett
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Flash said:
....... there is a reason we don't allow US government personnel to do those kind of dirty things (most of the time), maybe that is because we are a nation of laws. Once you start going into those gray areas the lines become blurred and then really bad things start to happen. When does killing a legitimate target become murder? When does being employed by a private company doing work for your country become being a hired gun for the highest bidder? Things can get really ugly really fast when you start bending the rules far enough to break them. .....
Baloney.

We have lots of laws. Laws against speeding, laws against jaywalking .... ever break any??? "Most of the time"??? Or just "some of the time"??? I guess if it's just a question of degree for you, you can afford to be selective and idealistic regarding your "standards" You live in a Puzzle Palace PC dream world (my opinion) ... that's O.K. for you --- it's fine, I don't care nor do I desire to change your mind. In my experience, your opinion is in the military minority. Fortunately for you, you have the luxury of not having to pull any "triggers" nor see the immediate results of your "work" and training ....

Ever hear of "Mush" Morton??? USS Wahoo ??? I know you have..... Did he "murder" or did he do his duty ???

My Dad was at Malmedy and counted the American dead. He's in a (in)famous picture of the tragedy. After that experience, his unit never took any Waffen SS prisoners again. "Murder" you say ??? Until you have walked in their shoes --- who are you or anyone else to "judge" ??? Air conditioned offices (producing air conditioned officers ??) are not always the best launching pads to judge wartime conduct of those in the field.

We've been down that road before .....
 

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think this is the first time I have been associated with a liberal point of view. I dont think any of the opinions held by the type A+ personalities are going to change. I hope to God that I am overreacting and wrong I guess we will know in 20 or so years.
Almost time to go to the club.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
Just to jump in here... a lot of the contractors working overseas are retired from many of the above organizations mentioned (DOD and the other 3 letter ones)- How do you think they got their special skill sets and experience in the first place? The ones I know aren't looking to do this stuff as a second career- some like being where the action is, while others like the idea of making some good money to make things a little more comfortable in retirement. Whats going to happen when things settle down over there and the jobs dry up? They are going to just go back into retirement and sit on the nestege they've collected.

Someone questioned earlier why they just don't expand the military to do the missions the contractors are doing... simple: would take waaaaaaaay to long for individuals to gain the skills and experience to do the job they need to be done right now. And when that job goes away then what- have another drawdown where they kick 10,000s of servicemembers to the curb???

Yes, people can be blinded by money but before you refer to them all as mercenaries remember that many of the contractors have put in more time defending this country and our way of life then many of the people here and are continuing to do so in a different fashion. Is the system flawed in some respects- of course but its no different then the other programs that stood up after 9/11.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
A4sForever said:
Baloney.

We have lots of laws. Laws against speeding, laws against jaywalking .... ever break any??? "Most of the time"??? Or just "some of the time"??? I guess if it's just a question of degree for you, you can afford to be selective and idealistic regarding your "standards" You live in a Puzzle Palace PC dream world (my opinion) ... that's O.K. for you --- it's fine, I don't care nor do I desire to change your mind. In my experience, your opinion is in the military minority. Fortunately for you, you have the luxury of not having to pull any "triggers" nor see the immediate results of your "work" and training ....

Ever hear of "Mush" Morton??? USS Wahoo ??? I know you have..... Did he "murder" or did he do his duty ???

My Dad was at Malmedy and counted the American dead. He's in a (in)famous picture of the tragedy. After that experience, his unit never took any Waffen SS prisoners again. "Murder" you say ??? Until you have walked in their shoes --- who are you or anyone else to "judge" ??? Air conditioned offices (producing air conditioned officers ??) are not always the best launching pads to judge wartime conduct of those in the field.

We've been down that road before .....

Sure, I break some of the laws above but I have paid for them in the past, and they ain't murder or assault. Part of the problem with contractors overseas is that it is rarely clear whose laws they are answerable too, they have immunity in Iraq right now thanks to the Coalition Provisional Authority.

As for criticizing me for sitting in an air conditioned office in DC and never seeing my work first hand, how is sitting in a tiki bar on the beach any different? Like you, I have friends and work colleagues who have been 'over there' and seen there handiwork up close and personal. We have debates about contractors/torture and all the other latest niceties when it comes to the war on terrorism. Most of the guys I know who have been 'over there' have very low opininions of contractors in the field "The Blackwater guys are a bunch of arrogant cowboys", "they don't follow any rules". On th eother hand, some of them are now working as contractors.

It does not change the fact that I have not seen my handiwork up close, just from 25,000 ft. But it also doesn't change the fact that very few on this board have seen this kind of thing in a combat zone firsthand, not including you A4s. So we could debate this until the cows come home but obviously it will change no ones mind. Just don't be suprised that it comes back to bite us in the a$% sooner or later.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Barnard1425 said:
Though I agree with Flash, skidkid, and Wedge, I sure as hell hope that history shows Brett327 to be correct.
Ahh, the passion of the Barnard. :D

Brett
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Flash said:
....As for criticizing me for sitting in an air conditioned office in DC ......how is sitting in a tiki bar on the beach any different? Like you, I have friends and work colleagues who have been 'over there' and seen there handiwork up close and personal.......So we could debate this until the cows come home but obviously it will change no ones mind. Just don't be suprised that it comes back to bite us in the a$% sooner or later.
Sure ... no problem-o, Flash. We differ on other things as well --- and that's O.K. It's a good thing you weren't in my squadrons, however. The B/N's back-in-the-day (mostly animals -- even the East Coast bluebloods amongst them :) ) would have had a field day with you. I susbscribe to the "it's a big sky" theory where there is room enough for both of our opinions. I just think I am more cynical and realistic (?) than you --- I (in my eyes) see the world as it is .... you are probably more idealistic than I and see the world as you wish it were ..... ???

But either way --- it's still a "big sky".

How is my little world any different than your airconditioned, white skin-drying, Ha'Ole Heaven on the Potomac ??? For starters; I get to sit in a Tiki Bar on the beach because : ...... (drum roll) I've paid my dues .... many times over ..... and I'm a survivor.

So I'll have one for you .... you can mail me the money later --- no hurry; things are usuallly kinda slow over here.

Me Ka Hau`oli Makahiki Hou!
 

Wedge

Registered User
I have come off strong on this subject and decided that I should wait until I have more experience with these groups. I will trust the knowledgeable service members that have first hand experience with these groups and leave it at that. I still have some questions about these private corporations (all the points from my previouse posts) but I will have faith in the veterans with positive experiences and testimonies.

I still worry about these groups being used here in the US they may be of good use in Iraq but not here at home. the following is a report of the Blackwater corp used during Hurricane Katrina. The following is from reporters working in New Orleans.

“ as we went around, saw other figures, we didn't know who they worked for, like those in front of Hibernia Bank, as we were driving by and John Hamilton was filming. They flagged down our car. They said, “Stop the filming.” And we said, “Why?” And they said, “We just said ‘stop the filming.’” They said, “These are our streets,” and made clear next to their sports shirt, you could see clearly that they were carrying guns.

They alleged that they had been deputized. And another key point is that these Blackwater guys said that they were given the authority to use lethal force, as well as the power to make arrests. And when we asked them about this use of them in the United States, they said that they believe that we're going to see a lot more of this and that this is a trend. So, I think that this is a very, very disturbing development that we are seeing here on the streets of New Orleans”.
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
Wedge said:
I have come off strong on this subject and decided that I should wait until I have more experience with these groups. I will trust the knowledgeable service members that have first hand experience with these groups and leave it at that. I still have some questions about these private corporations (all the points from my previouse posts) but I will have faith in the veterans with positive experiences and testimonies.

I still worry about these groups being used here in the US they may be of good use in Iraq but not here at home. the following is a report of the Blackwater corp used during Hurricane Katrina. The following is from reporters working in New Orleans.

“ as we went around, saw other figures, we didn't know who they worked for, like those in front of Hibernia Bank, as we were driving by and John Hamilton was filming. They flagged down our car. They said, “Stop the filming.” And we said, “Why?” And they said, “We just said ‘stop the filming.’” They said, “These are our streets,” and made clear next to their sports shirt, you could see clearly that they were carrying guns.

They alleged that they had been deputized. And another key point is that these Blackwater guys said that they were given the authority to use lethal force, as well as the power to make arrests. And when we asked them about this use of them in the United States, they said that they believe that we're going to see a lot more of this and that this is a trend. So, I think that this is a very, very disturbing development that we are seeing here on the streets of New Orleans”.

Ill come back to this one and post after dinner. Ill be sure to share some of my experiances in both Sworn and Private Law Enforcement and you'll find out why I dont do either anymore.
 

mkoch

I'm not driving fast, I'm flying low
Just a side note on use of private security in the US. It's not at all uncommon for police departments to temporarily deputize private contractors. I have a friend who works with a private security firm in the boston area, mostly doing work as corporate security and private bodyguards. On occation, when a local PD is having a large scale event, and they lack the manpower to cover the entire event without compromising other areas of their jurisdiction (e.g a big parade, or something similar which occupies alot of geography) they'll contract a few people. They'll contract a few patrol guys and some sharpshooters, people who work for a reputable company, have lots of experience, and already hold licenses/permits to act as security in the area. They get a 24 hour contract, do the job, and the city is safer because of it. And yes, they're held to the same standards of conduct as any officer on the force.
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
Alright, gather round as I tell you tales of my experiance in the Private Sector.....

First off there are roughly 18,760 Police Agencys in the United States, from the DOJ-Fed Level all the way down to little 4 Officer Sherrifs Departments out on Indian Reservations. The vast majority of municipal departments are small, having 10 or fewer officers. For Every Police Officer in the Country there are an estimated 8 Private Security Officers (at all levels of the term).

A little background on the situation I was in. I worked in the City of Dayton Ohio as a Private Security Officer this last summer. The City of Dayton is the 10th most dangerous in its size catagory in the country down from 7th in 2004.... go us. There are 4 big Security Companies in the city that hold the lions share of contract work in the city. You have Merchant and Anderson, both national companys with good reputations for officer conduct overall. You have International Security which does mostly Corperate level stuff, officer buildings, banks, ect. Then you have Moonlight, my company. Out of these 4 we were the only ones who had the option available for Lethal Force (Companys like Brinks and such not withstanding). Why would anybody want lethal force, well not everybody does. Many of the contracts we had did not require an armed guard., Why? Because it costs more and the company putting out the contract didnt see it as neccesary to the job. Just being somewhere and being deterrant (I.E. a set of eyes to call the police) is enough for most people to find some place else to break into or buy their drugs. However our company had a reputation, we were the only one in the city that would actually place someone into custody to facilitate an arrest, notice I didnt say arrest I said Facilitate an Arrest. We were also one of the only ones that had any force options whatsoever, Merchant will fire you for defending yourself. We got this reputation because of the places we worked, Western Manor, Hilltop, Cliburn Manor, Cornell, all of these are section 8 housing projects for the city of Dayton. DPD wont go into Hilltop with fewer then 8 officers, Western Manor was the largest inflow point of Heroin in the city of Dayton, we went into these places and cleaned up. Its not somewhere Id want to live no, because it is in the middle of the hood, but its not what it was. This last summer we (Moonlight) had a small war with a local gang at Hilltop manor, at one point we tasked what we called the "A Team." It was a group of handpicked officers, myself included who all had military or police backgrounds. These were the only officers who worked that area, Myself and one other officer being certified OPOTA for shotgun, we carried Longguns for foot Patrols. Now imagine 4 officers in Uniforms that are identical to the local Sherriff department one of them carrying a Shotgun slung, doing foot patrols of the neighborhood your in (the worst one in the city). It looked menecing as hell, but we stopped getting shot at, and it sent the message of you will leave or we will make you leave. Why did we do this, because the Police didnt have the assets to do this, they were only able to respond to a situation and had no real preemptive capabilities. This is however where the tread lightly portion of the job comes into play, and the overall reason I got out. You are asked in many cases to walk like a cop, talk like a cop, act like a cop, however you are not a cop. These companies have boatloads of insurance, especially if they have use of force ability, to protect themselves. You the officer, are basically putting yourself in a very liable position, because your knowledge and training are all that seperates you from being torn appart in civil court for overstepping your grounds. We were only able to pursue up to the property line, we were only able to use force to protect ourselves and bystanders from immediate harm not to protect property (something many companies didnt get). I got out because while I knew my ass was smart enough to know where the line is, I didnt trust the guy next to me. We had guys that would never have made it into real LEO positions, this is the thing you find with a lot of Private Security guys, the wanna-be cop. They get real easy to spot the more you work with them, they are the ones that carry their badges off duty like it means something. They are the guys you worry about when your working because they cause more problems then they solve, our company is going down hill because the new management is one of these guys, hes failed out of 4 police academys. He lacked the academic and physical requirements and guys like me knew it. He however hired enough guys like himself that the guys like me left, as a result the company has taken a big hit as far as the respect given to it by Local PD. When I was there DPD, Trotwood PD, and Montgomery Co loved us, they saw us as basically a great resource to use to find people they were already looking for. They gave us updated lists of active warrants in the area for when we did ID stops, and we would call them and tell them when we had somebody they wanted, we were an extra set of eyes and hands if need be. Now, a lot of that is gone, theres still some good officers but the company as a whole is beginning to slide.

This is the same with Blackwater, they have a reputation, companies know that reputation. And it is the job of the individual officer to uphold that reputation otherwise the company and other officers will feel the effects, no differnt then when somebody in a differnt uniform does something stupid and it effects us all.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
Don't mean to resurrect this bad boy, but starting January 17, PBS is going to launch a documentary (may be in parts, I don't know) on private security in Iraq including those protecting generals and American bases.
 

bigfish

I can always fall back on my SAW skills
pilot
What's the IA for a near ambush? Come on guys, just show why they should leave this stuff to the real professionals.
 
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