CJCS responds to Rep. Gaetz

[MGoBrew11]

Can we stop the stereotype that the struggle of blacks is due solely to inner city poverty? The majority of black people live in the southeast /midwest united states in a suburban or rural community.

If we could solve the inner city poverty problem, there would still be roughly 30M blacks facing the same problems as they did before - it's really hard to carve out a lucrative career when your neighborhood's commerce consists of a Walmart and Chick-Fil-a...which isn't unique to anyone of any particular race or gender.

I didn’t say it was due to “solely” inner city poverty, but come on man, you have to be blind to see it doesn’t play a huge role.

I grew up in a suburb of Detroit. To this day Detroit and it’s suburbs are the most segregated neighborhoods in America. Sure it is de facto and not de jure but the reasons it continues to be like this is because it was at one time de jure. This is true in a lot of places.

I taught in the Deep South. Again, only a fool can look me in the eyes and say their aren’t deep historical reasons that my students, 99% of whom were black, had nothing and just down the street the private high school that was 99% white cost $20,000 a year. The black kids that got into that school played football and went on to play at SEC schools. You don’t see anything wrong with this picture?

Lastly, regardless of where poor blacks live, I have continuously acknowledged in this thread that the experience of poor whites in this country isn’t much better. It doesn’t negate the fact though that blacks have faced historic legal systemic racism, which has resulted in a trickle down effect that lasts on the present day.

 

[HAL Pilot]

only a fool can look me in the eyes and say their aren’t deep historical reasons that my students, 99% of whom were black, had nothing and just down the street the private high school that was 99% white cost $20,000 a year.

No is denying this. What we are saying is that the cause is history, not present. Those that want better have pathways and opportunities available if they are willing. The laws ensure it. Government was done its part, now it’s time for the individuals to do theirs.

 

[MGoBrew11]

No is denying this. What we are saying is that the cause is history, not present. Those that want better have pathways and opportunities available if they are willing. The laws ensure it. Government was done its part, now it’s time for the individuals to do theirs.

Eh, to an extent yes, but we're very much not there yet. Look, I'm conservative at heart and in my instincts. I vote GOP, often times reluctantly, because I don't like either choice very much. I hear what you are saying in this thread and there is some truth to it. At the same time, I do think there is some truth to the charges of systemic racism, which are yes, I agree, caused by history, not current law. It was legal until the 1960s though....my parents were both alive. We are only one generation removed from legal segregation.

The problem I see with saying "the pathways and opportunities are available if they are willing" is that legally, yes they are. In reality though? Not really. I had students that were 20 years old and at 3rd grade reading levels. Their opportunities were already robbed from them before they even had a chance. How do we fix that. I'm not saying I have the answers, but I do think it should be acknowledged that the root of the problem in that city was slavery, Jim Crow etc.

 

[Brett327]

I clearly stated that the Democrat Party is waging demographic warfare for the purpose of establishing one party rule. If immigrants voted for Republicans the way they vote for Democrats, Kamala Harris would shut the border down airtight. Instead, she has it wide open.

Thank goodness. This thread really needed some comic relief.

 

[RoarkJr.]

WOW

I am honestly speechless that an officer in the military would have these beliefs.

I think you’re just shocked that someone is willing to entertain ideas that might be true but not politically correct. That’s the problem, no one is interested in truth, especially if it’s uncomfortable. The truth is that there are aspects of culture (read: not necessarily race) that DO hinder development. Perhaps it’s more sociopolitical, but there is a degree of hate that comes from within your own community as a poor person who tries to better themselves.

What I would personally be more shocked at is an officer unwilling to speak or entertain ideas that might be true when it’s difficult. I believe that’s called moral courage, and integrity.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

No is denying this. What we are saying is that the cause is history, not present. Those that want better have pathways and opportunities available if they are willing. The laws ensure it. Government was done its part, now it’s time for the individuals to do theirs.

Serious question. We are only one generation removed from legal segregation.

Are we really to believe that those who opposed legal segregation and Jim Crow just realized they were wrong and decided to all of a sudden give equal opportunity to everyone required?

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

What I would personally be more shocked at is an officer unwilling to speak or entertain ideas that might be true when it’s difficult. I believe that’s called moral courage, and integrity.

I disagree and it is pathetic people even consider what was said to be anything close to moral courage or integrity. It is disheartening that people who are supposedly leaders in the military believe this sort of thing.

@Spekkio said:

The culture that becoming a functioning, middle-class member of society is abandoning one's race to the point it deserves a minimum of being ostracized from the family and at maximum deadly violence from members of their own race is unique to black people.

How can anyone with a straight face sit there and support this statement? It is absurd and blatantly racist.

 

[Jim123]

I think you’re just shocked that someone is willing to entertain ideas that might be true but not politically correct. That’s the problem, no one is interested in truth, especially if it’s uncomfortable. The truth is that there are aspects of culture (read: not necessarily race) that DO hinder development. Perhaps it’s more sociopolitical, but there is a degree of hate that comes from within your [one's] own community as a poor person who tries to better themselves.

I think Brett mentioned that bullying comes in many forms (and races, cultures, what have you). Sometimes it includes this weird, racist self-loathing, sometimes it doesn't.

If we want to flip the scenario around to sanity check it, is there also hate within "poor white trash" communities towards people working to escape and make a better life? (Pick your stereotype- "You think you're better than us, you think you're too good for the: coal mines/meth labs/tobacco fields/__, you were born here and you're going to die here.") What if you look across the entire human race- lots of cases of ethnic groups, castes, etc. around the world who are disadvantaged from any number of historical circumstances. Think there are parallels where you can have two neighbors from the same background and one insults the other as an "Uncle Tom?" Some places yes, you sure can but other places no. That self-loathing racism thing isn't universal but it's not completely unique either.

You gotta be careful how you let yourself think about this one. It's easy to fall into the trap that just because you have observed it in a few cases, or heard stories from individuals you've personally known, that doesn't justify making the leap of logic to blame an entire community for that behavior. The loudest voices always disproportionately seem to represent any group, but that doesn't mean a majority of the group condones that message or that behavior. The lack of a loud chorus of voices, arguing against that behavior, doesn't imply a lack of good people who disagree or are quietly working against it. Along this same thought, you gotta be careful not to underestimate it, based on your own personal experiences and people you've known.

For every person who did beat the system and made a better life for themselves, they had both naysayers and encouragers, people working hard to make their lives more difficult and people actively assisting them.

 

[RoarkJr.]

I disagree and it is pathetic people even consider what was said to be anything close to moral courage or integrity. It is disheartening that people who are supposedly leaders in the military believe this sort of thing.

@Spekkio said:

How can anyone with a straight face sit there and support this statement? It is absurd and blatantly racist.

If that is pathetic, then what is this?

Whiteness

Socially and politically constructed, whiteness is not simply referring to skin color but is an ideology that reinforces power at the expense of others and strengthens systems of oppression. Let’s dig deeper.

nmaahc.si.edu

“Whiteness operates in covert and overt ways that affect all of us. It can appear as practices within an institution or accepted social norms. Since whiteness works almost invisibly, we may not always be aware of how it manifests in our daily lives…”

“Whiteness (and its accepted normality) also exist as everyday microaggressions toward people of color.”

You can’t honestly tell me that a rational, free American is supposed to take any of this seriously. By supporting this sort of rhetoric you are actively contributing to the division of our country.

Keep in mind both China and Russia use this propaganda to frame themselves as having the moral high ground, which undoubtedly naive college students eat up to satisfy their need for moral validation.

 

[RoarkJr.]

I think Brett mentioned that bullying comes in many forms (and races, cultures, what have you). Sometimes it includes this weird, racist self-loathing, sometimes it doesn't.

If we want to flip the scenario around to sanity check it, is there also hate within "poor white trash" communities towards people working to escape and make a better life? (Pick your stereotype- "You think you're better than us, you think you're too good for the: coal mines/meth labs/tobacco fields/__, you were born here and you're going to die here.") What if you look across the entire human race- lots of cases of ethnic groups, castes, etc. around the world who are disadvantaged from any number of historical circumstances. Think there are parallels where you can have two neighbors from the same background and one insults the other as an "Uncle Tom?" Some places yes, you sure can but other places no. That self-loathing racism thing isn't universal but it's not completely unique either.

You gotta be careful how you let yourself think about this one. It's easy to fall into the trap that just because you have observed it in a few cases, or heard stories from individuals you've personally known, that doesn't justify making the leap of logic to blame an entire community for that behavior. The loudest voices always disproportionately seem to represent any group, but that doesn't mean a majority of the group condones that message or that behavior. The lack of a loud chorus of voices, arguing against that behavior, doesn't imply a lack of good people who disagree or are quietly working against it. Along this same thought, you gotta be careful not to underestimate it, based on your own personal experiences and people you've known.

For every person who did beat the system and made a better life for themselves, they had both naysayers and encouragers, people working hard to make their lives more difficult and people actively assisting them.

I’m not sure I’d agree that stuff is “unique to black people” as was said. But there are serious problems that are unique to the black community. Who is to blame? Whites? What about poor trailer park whites such as myself who come from a long line of poor laborers? No? Okay then, only some whites. But which? Who decides? That’s the problem. It’s whoever the resentful, power hungry political radicals decide is the problem. See Stalin’s Russia as to how that turned out in the early 20th century.

What’s important is the observation that even entertaining that idea is seen as racist to some people here. That is a HUGE red flag. People who have internalized white guilt so hard that they can no longer critically think should seriously think about how that affects their capacity to be trusted in positions of responsibility and authority in a free nation.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

What’s important is the observation that even entertaining that idea is seen as racist to some people here. That is a HUGE red flag. People who have internalized white guilt so hard that they can no longer critically think should seriously think about how that affects their capacity to be trusted in positions of responsibility and authority in a free nation.

You don't see anything wrong with using a broad brush for the entire black community by stating they have to abandon their culture to be middle class?

Racism exist from individuals as does oppression. It is systemic. Maybe once it was in the past, but not any more nor for at least that last 3 generations.

3 generations? The civil rights act was passed in 1964.

 

[Mirage]

You don't see anything wrong with using a broad brush for the entire black community by stating they have to abandon their culture to be middle class?

3 generations? The civil rights act was passed in 1964.

He didn't say they have to abandon their culture to be middle class. He said in many cases their peers accuse them of abandoning their culture if they try to be middle class. This is a well documented fact in many poor Black neighborhoods. It's also true in poor white neighborhoods, as Jim pointed out and I can attest to. It's human nature to see others trying hard and succeeding more than yourself, then try to bring that person down to your level instead of rising to theirs. It's an attitude of the lazy and unsuccessful, no matter the culture or color of ones skin.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

You don't see anything wrong with using a broad brush for the entire black community by stating they have to abandon their culture to be middle class?

3 generations? The civil rights act was passed in 1964.

Boomers 1946-64
Gen X 1965-80
Millennials 1981-96
Gen Y 1997-2012
Gen whatever 2012-

 

[Flash]

Obviously, you don't live in Los Angeles. You would be dead in no time if I dropped you off in certain neighborhoods.

Applies to a few places in Georgia too if you happen to have the wrong skin color.

If immigrants voted for Republicans the way they vote for Democrats, Kamala Harris would shut the border down airtight. Instead, she has it wide open.

The border with Mexico is 1954 miles, or 3145 kilometers for the commies out there, and no one has ever made it 'airtight' to include the last President.

The Democrat Party is waging demographic warfare on America with the intent to establish one party rule. And that party is becoming more influenced by Communism with each passing day.

I don't even know where to begin with this, the moronic John Birchers claimed this bullshit 60 years ago and apparently it is now back in fashion among low information voters and the propogandists that feed them loads of bullshit. The Birchers were stupid enough to claim that even Eisenhower was a commie, unfortunately it is not surprising to see that strain of stupidity is alive and well in 'Murica!

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

Boomers 1946-64
Gen X 1965-80
Millennials 1981-96
Gen Y 1997-2012
Gen whatever 2012-

The majority of the workforce who aren't in their 20s had parents that experienced segregation. That is one generation. Trying to break generations out into 15 year increments is ridiculous.

I work with people who experienced segregation first hand. The idea that it just disappeared awhile back is absurd. Two of my coworkers were bused to schools for racial integration in Virginia and they're not even 60.