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BFM...Clubs?

Pags said:
I dunno, dummies like you and I went from nothing to tail chase in less than 100hrs. Would it probably cost a ton? Sure...but there's people that would pay it.
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We were also pre-screened, and the folks the Navy teaches BFM to are pre-screened on top of that, and the instructors have fleet experience and BFM quals.
Pags said:
Also, I know nothing about BFM, but is it necessary to do "high aspect?" Can a piston engined prop with low Ps really do "high aspect?" I'd imagine it would be more like WWI dogfighting but that might still be enough to make it something different.
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Sure it can. All you have to (theoretically) be able to do to do HABFM is show up to a neutral merge, i.e. 180 out from the other guy's flight path. That's what "high-aspect" means. Now in a prop trainer, which has a very bad T:W ratio, there's probably a limited amount of things you can actually DO post-merge, most of which probably involve going downhill rather rapidly, though admittedly I never had a chance to try.

Point is, though, tail chase with an IP in the trunk is one thing. Getting a solo civilian to a level of proficiency where they can fly formation out to the area and back, fly tac form to set up a set and stay in the area, safely execute BFM sets (let's not even worry about who shoots who), safely rejoin after the knock-it-off (when you hook a stan check, it's always admin buffoonery that bites you), and RTB is something else.

Questions that need instantaneous safe answers would be things like:
  • "I'm at the top of a rolling scissors with my fangs out, but do I have the altitude to press it without busting the hard deck, or do I need to convert to the flats? Can I even do that in a prop job with a ton of P-factor?"
  • "I've got a hershey-bar wing that can load up Gs faster than any fighter, but it's hot, I'm sweaty, and I have no G-suit. Can I hack this turn, or am I going to G-LOC in 5 seconds and wake up to Lead screaming, no ejection seat, and the ground in my face?"
  • "Lead's on my ass; I need to break turn NOW. But I'm screaming downhill. Can I do this and not over-G the aircraft, even with a hershey-bar wing that can load up Gs faster than any fighter?"
  • "Dammit, I've almost got this SOB dead to rights, but what's that out of the corner of my eye? Is that an interloper? Do I need to call KIO?"
  • "I heard the KIO call, but where the hell is lead, and how do I do an unknown-airspeed rendezvous and rejoin on him?"
Of course you can teach these things. If you couldn't, Kingsville and Meridian would run out of students. But where do you draw the line between a retired O-5 TOPGUN grad getting beer money and amusement while being way overqualified to teach that stuff to civilian fat cats, and Jesse Joe Bubba's Dogfightin' Skool? You're teaching people to fly their aircraft in an area of the flight envelope where dumb mistakes can go really, really sideways really quickly.
 
ChiccinTendies said:
Another stupid question coming from me: I've read a couple stories about veteran fighter pilots that get together and buy some old WW2 fighters, like Russian Yak-3s, and just do BFM for fun in them against each other.
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No, this is not generally done.

WWII fighters are pretty special and no one abuses them in BFM. They do flyovers and light aerobatics. A Yak-3 will run you at least a half million dollars... and no potential owner is going to waste their time, energy and money "doing BFM" with a guy in a $2M-$3M P-51, a $4M Corsair, or a priceless P-38, of which there are only 7 left flying in the world.

And although there are a few former "veteran fighter pilots" that can afford to buy a multi-million dollar BFM toy... there are very few.

Can you point us toward the stories you've read about this happening?

ChiccinTendies said:
I don't know if the forum rules would allow a discussion on military service and Christianity, but that is one I'd be willing to have.
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I don't know if the rules allow it either, but you can start a separate thread and see if the mods shut it down. As someone who is a Christian and served as a military pilot for most of my adult life, I never compromised my moral beliefs to make it happen.
 
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VMO4 said:
Over the years there have been several private businesses which were staffed by former MIL aviators experienced in such maneuvers. Most used piston T-34's or SIAI SF 260 Marchetti's. After Texas Air Aces had two aircraft (T-34)s separate from their wings, I don't think anybody still runs a similar business. Most any airplane you could afford to play these games in can be ripped apart in the air if you don't know what you are doing.
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Didn't Lex (Carroll LeFon) work for a company in CA that flew BFM rides for civillians using former MIL pilots before he went to work for ATAC? I have no idea if they are still in business.
 
ChiccinTendies said:
Another stupid question coming from me: I've read a couple stories about veteran fighter pilots that get together and buy some old WW2 fighters, like Russian Yak-3s, and just do BFM for fun in them against each other. I don't have the links on me right now, but I can link later if someone needs them. Do these clubs really exist? Could a civy ever join them? I'm only asking because my religious views might get in the way of me ever joining the military, and I just want to know how realistic it would be to try to pursue that sort of thing when I'm older. I figured if crazy guys can get together and put on medieval armor and try to knock each other out in HEMA tournaments, wanting to buy an old fighter and duke it out with other guys doesn't seem so unrealistic in comparison.
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Rocketman said:
Didn't Lex (Carroll LeFon) work for a company in CA that flew BFM rides for civillians using former MIL pilots before he went to work for ATAC? I have no idea if they are still in business.
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Correct. Here's the company: https://aircombat.com/. They're located in SoCal, so if you want to go do some simulated dogfighting, then find your way to Orange County. They use some old Marchettis which is pretty cool. I wonder if they come with an espresso machine and angry Italian driver simulators. It'd be like being back in Napoli, but in the air.

angry-italian-driver-gesturing-funny-road-rage-theme-picture-id891777202


angry-road-user.jpg
 
Any of you internal combustioning plane drivers ever been in a thermal beneath a big cumulus with a bunch of other gliders? Turns into a turning fight real quick. Like the overhead stack on a day VFR recovery, but with no noise.

I’m seriously thinking RedBull should sponsor this. Each plane tows a ribbon, and the goal is to cut the other guy’s ribbon.
 
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