BFM...Clubs?

[ChiccinTendies]

Another stupid question coming from me: I've read a couple stories about veteran fighter pilots that get together and buy some old WW2 fighters, like Russian Yak-3s, and just do BFM for fun in them against each other. I don't have the links on me right now, but I can link later if someone needs them. Do these clubs really exist? Could a civy ever join them? I'm only asking because my religious views might get in the way of me ever joining the military, and I just want to know how realistic it would be to try to pursue that sort of thing when I'm older. I figured if crazy guys can get together and put on medieval armor and try to knock each other out in HEMA tournaments, wanting to buy an old fighter and duke it out with other guys doesn't seem so unrealistic in comparison.

 

[KODAK]

Plenty of folks - like myself - both Fly Navy and fly general aviation aircraft in their off time. Personally I could care less about BFM and instead fly a lot of close form and cross country flights. I pay less for my plane than many fellow aviators do for their fancy Ensign-mobiles and I manage to approximately double my yearly flight time with it.. It is both a reasonable goal to own your own plane and a ton of fun!

 

[flgator92]

Another stupid question coming from me: I've read a couple stories about veteran fighter pilots that get together and buy some old WW2 fighters, like Russian Yak-3s, and just do BFM for fun in them against each other. I don't have the links on me right now, but I can link later if someone needs them. Do these clubs really exist? Could a civy ever join them? I'm only asking because my religious views might get in the way of me ever joining the military, and I just want to know how realistic it would be to try to pursue that sort of thing when I'm older. I figured if crazy guys can get together and put on medieval armor and try to knock each other out in HEMA tournaments, wanting to buy an old fighter and duke it out with other guys doesn't seem so unrealistic in comparison.

Never, ever heard of this... but the broader question is: why would you do BFM if you're not a military aviator? And, even more to the point, for what you'd pay to sit in the back seat while watching some salty ex-fight pilot type to yank and bank around tail chasing his buddy in some rickety and old vomit comet, you probably could just work on your PPL and move on to other ratings to one day fly for the airlines- if like you say, military aviation isn't for you.

 

[ChiccinTendies]

Never, ever heard of this... but the broader question is: why would you do BFM if you're not a military aviator? And, even more to the point, for what you'd pay to sit in the back seat while watching some salty ex-fight pilot type to yank and bank around tail chasing his buddy in some rickety and old vomit comet, you probably could just work on your PPL and move on to other ratings to one day fly for the airlines- if like you say, military aviation isn't for you.

I meant actually owning a plane and doing BFM myself. As for the reason, the same reason people go sky diving, bungee jumping, or train BJJ. I want to have fun. I'm still very conflicted about this issue so I'm not sure yet. I don't know if the forum rules would allow a discussion on military service and Christianity, but that is one I'd be willing to have.

 

[nittany03]

Never, ever heard of this... but the broader question is: why would you do BFM if you're not a military aviator?

Uhh . . . because it’s fun?

That said, though BFM is fun (if tiring), the idea of just jumping in as a civilian with no mil training is a bit of a pipe dream. I have heard of ex-fighter guys with money doing some 1v1 with others of the same ilk, but that’s like asking if you can jump in on a pickup game with some recently-retired NBA guys. Except instead of just getting dunked on when you screw up, there’s the very real chance of flames, wreckage, and death. Just a few hiccups that would derail the whole thing:

• Experience. Unless you have many, many flights max-performing an aircraft, you have no idea where its limits are and when you’re about to get overenthusiastic, depart, crash, and die. You also have no idea about standard comms needed for safety of flight. Student pilots learn flying. Then form and aero. Then select jets. Then more fam, form, and aero. Then tacform. And that’s just enough to be barely safe enough doing admin and tac admin to even START learning BFM, which has its own separate ways you can screw up and die.
• Training rules. What are they? The Navy has a whole community of developmental and operational test folks, and weapons school folks, who set training rules to fight safely. Unless you are one of these people, how do you think you’re going to set rules for your “club” that keep you AND the public safe?
• Airspace. Where does one fight that doesn’t put innocent VFR traffic at risk of a midair from you and some other aircraft yanking and banking? The military uses MOAs. Civilians can’t schedule MOAs. Yes, there are companies which do mock BFM rides, but I’d bet serious cash they’ve pre-coordinated all this and more with the FAA ahead of time.

And that’s just off the top of my head . . .

 

[flgator92]

Uhh . . . because it’s fun?

Haha yeah... fair enough. But I think he's thinking of precision aero, not BFM.

 

[Pags]

When I was in college some of the older mids who had their PPLs and a few of the weird AVCAD guys who were getting their degrees would rent the T-34Bs from the local NAS flying club. They'd bring some of us younger guys along in the trunk and they'd fly form and do some "1v1." I'm guessing in hindsight that the 1v1 was actually more akin to the tailchase we did in VTs as opposed to actual BFM but I sure thought it was AWESOME!

I imagine the OP was thinking that if a club did exist that it would have some sort of rules that would address the risks you mentioned. I could see some old guys doing what he describes and buying some old trainers, making some SOPs derived from fleet practices, making guys have the right ratings, and going and having fun. If these folks wanted to I'm sure they could train someone to meet their standards.

 

[nittany03]

I imagine the OP was thinking that if a club did exist that it would have some sort of rules that would address the risks you mentioned. I could see some old guys doing what he describes and buying some old trainers, making some SOPs derived from fleet practices, making guys have the right ratings, and going and having fun. If these folks wanted to I'm sure they could train someone to meet their standards.

I’m sure it’s technically possible, but taking a straight PPL holder and training them up into someone who could safely go out solo and execute as much high-aspect BFM as a T-34 or Yak-52 is even capable of executing is probably going to involve scads of money. For sure, it’s going to need an instructor who knows what he/she is doing. And I have no idea if that’s an activity that’s insurable, or if the insurance company would say “you want to do WHAT with the airplane? LOL, no.”

 

[VMO4]

Over the years there have been several private businesses which were staffed by former MIL aviators experienced in such maneuvers. Most used piston T-34's or SIAI SF 260 Marchetti's. After Texas Air Aces had two aircraft (T-34)s separate from their wings, I don't think anybody still runs a similar business. Most any airplane you could afford to play these games in can be ripped apart in the air if you don't know what you are doing.

 

[Hair Warrior]

You can just do pretend BVR engagements with unsuspecting aircraft. @Pags will be on the ground pretend launching pretend S-400’s at you. And when you get pretend shot down the pretend LNs can pretend exfil you to Coalition forces. Just don’t forget to fill out the pretend ISOPREP before you fly.

 

[nittany03]

You can just do pretend BVR engagements with unsuspecting aircraft. @Pags will be on the ground pretend launching pretend S-400’s at you. And when you get pretend shot down the pretend LNs can pretend exfil you to Coalition forces. Just don’t forget to fill out the pretend ISOPREP before you fly.

Dude, S-400 is not the preferred nomenclature. SA-21, please . . .

 

[Pags]

You can just do pretend BVR engagements with unsuspecting aircraft. @Pags will be on the ground pretend launching pretend S-400’s at you. And when you get pretend shot down the pretend LNs can pretend exfil you to Coalition forces. Just don’t forget to fill out the pretend ISOPREP before you fly.

The word is simulated not pretend. LARPers pretend while military professionals simulate.

 

[Pags]

I’m sure it’s technically possible, but taking a straight PPL holder and training them up into someone who could safely go out solo and execute as much high-aspect BFM as a T-34 or Yak-52 is even capable of executing is probably going to involve scads of money. For sure, it’s going to need an instructor who knows what he/she is doing. And I have no idea if that’s an activity that’s insurable, or if the insurance company would say “you want to do WHAT with the airplane? LOL, no.”

I dunno, dummies like you and I went from nothing to tail chase in less than 100hrs. Would it probably cost a ton? Sure...but there's people that would pay it.

Also, I know nothing about BFM, but is it necessary to do "high aspect?" Can a piston engined prop with low Ps really do "high aspect?" I'd imagine it would be more like WWI dogfighting but that might still be enough to make it something different.

 

[JTS11]

I mistakenly thought OP left out a letter in the thread title and this had something to do with Thailand. I'll see myself out, and go back to perusing the OCS board threads.

 

[Jim123]

The word is simulated not pretend. LARPers pretend while military professionals simulate.

LARPers have full contact sword fights. Why couldn't a BFM club do full contact BFM? They could use those special frangible bullets, like the bomber gunners used on the P-63 Pinball (P-39) for gunnery training. Gotta admit that would be pretty awesome.

(Laser tag and paintball are for sissies.)