Naval Aircraft and AOA

[nittany03]

Glad all I had to do back in T-34 days was get weight on wheels and hit the BETA button. Myyyyeeerrrrooooowwwmmmm . . .

 

[HuggyU2]

We've flown the Block 15 (A and B) for a good 15+ years now, ya old man

MIDNJAC! Respect your elders!!

Now go get me a bottle of Ensure from the fridge, ya whippersnapper.

 

[SynixMan]

@Jim123 brings up a lot of good points. After the event I would make it a point to practice odd forced landing setups with other IPs during Stan Flights. I will say the training we teach on ELPs is really good from an emergency standpoint when you're task saturated. Given more time I would've tried to give myself a longer final to bleed off airspeed and maybe a slight slip, but that really wasn't in the cards that day.

@taxi1 Heh, I do my best to be humble about it for now. I fucked up and came pretty close to a Class A, but did some of that pilot shit to turn it into just a good story.

 

[HooverPilot]

That said, I have yet to fly a Boeing airliner that displays the AoA to the pilots. The data is available... but not put on any displays. Maybe Airbus does it?

FedEx 757 & 767 display AoA in the HUD for the Captain only. So the data is there in the Boeing’s, it’s just not displayed.

 

[scoolbubba]

Interestingly, this was discussed at the last NATOPS Conference. To make a long boring story short, there was a NAVAIR study that said that ~15% torque may be a better approximate for engine out. I didn't have a chance to read the study, perhaps they literally meant "during the flare and rollout". Because it's clear to anyone that's flown the plane that if 15% is accurate throughout, the numbers in the PEL are all off. Basically, all that came from it is a blurb to manage energy properly added to the forced landing section [whenever the new NATOPS comes out... this conference was in APR of 2019, and I believe the new manual with changes that include minor OBOGS EP changes (will no longer matter if PCL was at idle, and turn obogs supply lever off instead of disconnecting the hose), and excessive fuel flow new EP (>800#, PEL - execute) have been coming soon for well over a year].

for fucks sake...a trainer has what, 4 full pages of memory items now? And we are adding more? Jesus.

 

[nittany03]

for fucks sake...a trainer has what, 4 full pages of memory items now? And we are adding more? Jesus.

Crew, Canopy, Cords, Harness, Crouch, Dive, Pull, bitches . . .

 

[FinkUFreaky]

for fucks sake...a trainer has what, 4 full pages of memory items now? And we are adding more? Jesus.

Agreed! The fact there is bold face for ejecting (ejection handle- pull (BOTH)) is blatantly absurd and blew my mind. Fire light in flight is all sorts of wrong as well. The AF did lose a bird with excessive fuel flow though, a couple years back. Had this one-step bold face existed, it wouldn't have happened.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Agreed! The fact there is bold face for ejecting (ejection handle- pull (BOTH)) is blatantly absurd and blew my mind. Fire light in flight is all sorts of wrong as well. The AF did lose a bird with excessive fuel flow though, a couple years back. Had this one-step bold face existed, it wouldn't have happened.

Isn't the Eject boldface due to sequencer issues? I vaguely remember something we used to brief about that (i.e. don't pull the handles at the same time to avoid seat collision), but it's been a few years and I've flown a few different airplanes since then.

Agree the amount of boldface in Navy aircraft can be a bit much. The T-38 had a total of seven boldface procedures when I trained on it in 2014. Longest one was 5 or 6 steps. Took ten minutes to memorize. Of course, USAF is gonna USAF, and you "failed" your boldface exam for non-SOF related things like not having the exact punctuation of the PCL procedure, not numbering your steps, etc... ?

 

[Jim123]

Isn't the Eject boldface due to sequencer issues? I vaguely remember something we used to brief about that (i.e. don't pull the handles at the same time to avoid seat collision), but it's been a few years and I've flown a few different airplanes since then.

The "both" part of "ejection handle-pull (both)" was in the T-6B NATOPS manual going back to at least 2009 and predating the sequencer issues (those front seat time delay CADs that wouldn't fire).

 

[FinkUFreaky]

The "both" part of "ejection handle-pull (both)" was in the T-6B NATOPS manual going back to at least 2009 and predating the sequencer issues (those front seat time delay CADs that wouldn't fire).

Yeah, with the sequencer issues local SOP changed to fly in SOLO and we would brief the process each flight on when each crew would pull. When flying in both, whoever pulls first will eject both, I think the thinking behind it being a BOTH item is so the student pulls it if the IP is incapacitated or something. Just a guess, but Jesus, it still does not need to be a boldface item.

 

[nittany03]

Just a guess, but Jesus, it still does not need to be a boldface item.

Well obviously, if you misplace a comma on your boldface exam, say “As Necessary” instead of “As Required,” or God forbid confuse “practical” with “practicable,” it means you’ll never be able to execute the procedure under stress in the cockpit. SAFETY VIOLATOR!

(Sarcasm switch - OFF)

 

[wink]

...

Agree the amount of boldface in Navy aircraft can be a bit much. The T-38 had a total of seven boldface procedures when I trained on it in 2014. Longest one was 5 or 6 steps. Took ten minutes to memorize. Of course, USAF is gonna USAF, and you "failed" your boldface exam for non-SOF related things like not having the exact punctuation of the PCL procedure, not numbering your steps, etc... ?

Back in 1987 I got factory training on the BAC 3100 Jetstream. The factory instructor was a former USAF instructor pilot and he demanded we do the number and punctuation thing. He even tried to humiliate me by insisting I knew better based on my Navy experience and just wasn't making an effort. He didn't believe me when I told him we didn't do that in the Navy. The guys that had other airline experience informed him that isn't commercial airline procedure. He carried on. We got one of our own qualified as a DPE and sent the factory dude packing.

 

[taxi1]

The factory instructor was a former USAF instructor pilot and he demanded we do the number and punctuation thing.

Ugh.

It's put the boldface on the paper, or it gets the hose.

We shouldn't even learn boldface as words in a list first, they should be learned as actions in a cockpit first, no words spoken. Like tying your shoelaces. Then translate into words when you have to take a monthly test.

 

[Gatordev]

He didn't believe me when I told him we didn't do that in the Navy.

If only that weren't (and possibly still "isn't") true.

 

[wink]

If only that weren't (and possibly still "isn't") true.

In the fleet I never had to know punctuation and give number order. Just say the procedure in proper order. Could say throttles, PCL, or power. Could say AOA or angle of attack, stick or control stick. Was that just casual San Diego?