Why are you Leaving?

[robav8r]

I'm really asking: is there any real reason to have Navy RW SF support?

From the outside looking in, one would think that it would make sense for SEALS/EOD to have their own, dedicated RW support. How much of their required support is already being filled in a timely manner from TF160 & AF assets? I wonder what Navy SOF would choose if given the choice between SWCC and organic RW assets . . . . .

 

[SynixMan]

I'm not meaning this to be rhetorical, I'm really asking: is there any real reason to have Navy RW SF support? TF160 and AFSOC have plenty of helo guys who do it as a full-time gig already. It's an expensive capability to maintain, both in terms of equipment and training. There's not been any demonstrated need for Navy squadrons that do it - 160th/AFSOC know how to stage off ships if necessary, and it's not like -84/-85 were normally embarked for emergent tasking, either. Other than wanting part of a sexy mission, why should it be part of the HSC repertoire? Again, asking from ignorance.

I get what you're saying, but you could take that logic train to conclude we don't need the NSW either. Let EOD handle mines and "Navy" stuff, and the Army/AF can handle overland SOF, right?

I'm sad to see them go. There's dudes on this board (and friends of mine) who gave a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to building a great capability. I hope we find to way to bring some of them back to the fleet and keep making the line squadrons better. There's opportunity to fill in some of the gap left with the EXP squadrons, but there has to be a desire.

 

[insanebikerboy]

I'm not meaning this to be rhetorical, I'm really asking: is there any real reason to have Navy RW SF support? TF160 and AFSOC have plenty of helo guys who do it as a full-time gig already. It's an expensive capability to maintain, both in terms of equipment and training. There's not been any demonstrated need for Navy squadrons that do it - 160th/AFSOC know how to stage off ships if necessary, and it's not like -84/-85 were normally embarked for emergent tasking, either. Other than wanting part of a sexy mission, why should it be part of the HSC repertoire? Again, asking from ignorance.

Well, since you asked.

I'll avoid specifics, but suffice to say, the majority of deployed support to SOF was from these two units. At home, it's about 40% for all training requests. The rest went to the TF160 guys and the scraps went to regular squadrons. Interestingly, there's a good portion of training requests that don't get fulfilled.

In the end, the CNO decided that SOF and Navy helos don't mix so regardless of the amount of support provided, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.

 

[squorch2]

MONEY IS A BITCH, a play in one act
​

INT. THE PENTAGON - OFFICE - MORNING

CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS​

"Hey, we're spending a lot of money on these squadrons to perform a non-core mission, SOCOM, can you help with funding?"

SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND​

"Nope."

CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS​

"Okay, I guess they weren't that important anyway."

CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS disestablishes HSC-84 and HSC-85. There is much WAILING and GNASHING OF TEETH.
​

FIN​

 

[Recovering LSO]

If only there were places (with very large and influential audiences) to express these ideas in greater detail.... I think each of them would happy to accept your written thoughts.


Additionally, there is an upstart group of mil-bloggers, writers, and thinkers that have come together to form the Military Writers Guild. If you've got something that you think is worth getting out into the "world," but aren't sure of your writing skills... fret not, send your work to this group and they will gladly help you out. Consider it to be a larger version of what many of you already do for applicants and their personal statement essays here on AW.

 

[RHINOWSO]

It's all about the dollars.... not the first Navy SOF aviation effort to go down in flames, and probably not that last...

 

[Uncle Fester]

Well the reality is that the last 14 years have apparently welded JSOC into an independent service, whose members just happen to wear different uniforms when it's time to dress up nice. I don't think anyone's thinking in terms of 'organic' spec war any longer, ie, Navy helos to support NSW. From that perspective, 84/85 were effectively redundant to their requirements. Why would JSOC fund them when they've got other helo guys who train to it more and have better toys? And if they don't need them enough to fund them, why should the 'vanilla' Navy foot the bill?

There's of course the possibility that special warfare slides back to parochialism in the coming years, and a day may come when NSW will regret not having Navy SF-support aviation. But I suspect that train has sailed. An entire generation of operators has come up knowing nothing other than this way of business - inter-service cooperation within JSOC is axiomatic and not given a second thought - and I highly doubt they'll change that as they take higher command.

 

[Randy Daytona]

when they've got other helo guys who train to it more and have better toys? And if they don't need them enough to fund them, why should the 'vanilla' Navy foot the bill?

Coincidence that the decommissioning of 84/85 happens at the same time that the V-22 is announced as the new COD bird? The Navy has to have COD anyway, perhaps do it with a platform then can also perform special ops? Will be interesting to see if the Navy V-22 is vanilla like the USMC MV-22 or has the extra wing tanks and terrain following radar in the USAF CV-22.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Coincidence that the decommissioning of 84/85 happens at the same time that the V-22 is announced as the new COD bird?...

Yes, it's a coincidence.

This kind of dovetails with the Romeos vs Sierras thread, but what an airplane's capable of matters very little compared to the training and proficiency of the crews. VRC's mission is logistics. It's not sexy, but it's vital.

Everyone loves to lump extra mission capabilities in their description because that's how you get money; doesn't mean they'll ever actually do it. If they really need Plopters to haul the dudes in Batman gear, that's what AFSOC V-22s are for. JSOC has its own air arm - TF160 and AFSOC. The Navy's niche in SF insertion/extraction/support is boat-side (SBS, SWCC, etc).

 

[armada1651]

what an airplane's capable of matters very little compared to the training and proficiency of the crews. VRC's mission is logistics. It's not sexy, but it's vital.

Everyone loves to lump extra mission capabilities in their description because that's how you get money; doesn't mean they'll ever actually do it.

Because the Navy has never transitioned a community to a new platform, realized said new platform can technically kind of sort of do everything almost adequately, and thus asked the community to now become experts on all those new things.

I'm sure you're probably right in this case, I'm just saying I can think of at least a few Navy and Marine communities that spend a huge amount of time and money training for missions which they will almost certainly never perform.

 

[SynixMan]

Coincidence that the decommissioning of 84/85 happens at the same time that the V-22 is announced as the new COD bird? The Navy has to have COD anyway, perhaps do it with a platform then can also perform special ops? Will be interesting to see if the Navy V-22 is vanilla like the USMC MV-22 or has the extra wing tanks and terrain following radar in the USAF CV-22.

I'm sure it will result in many mashing of teeth as dudes balk about the good ole days of "Just flying ass and trash. Fuck this tactics stuff"

 

[Gatordev]

Absolutely and completely a coincidence.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Coincidence that the decommissioning of 84/85 happens at the same time that the V-22 is announced as the new COD bird? The Navy has to have COD anyway, perhaps do it with a platform then can also perform special ops? Will be interesting to see if the Navy V-22 is vanilla like the USMC MV-22 or has the extra wing tanks and terrain following radar in the USAF CV-22.

COD dude by day, high speed SOF inserting, terrain following, strategic asset and tactics expert by night. Keep a sat phone with you by the pool at the Dubai Hilton for when the call comes.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Everyone loves to lump extra mission capabilities in their description because that's how you get money; doesn't mean they'll ever actually do it. If they really need Plopters to haul the dudes in Batman gear, that's what AFSOC V-22s are for. JSOC has its own air arm - TF160 and AFSOC. The Navy's niche in SF insertion/extraction/support is boat-side (SBS, SWCC, etc).

Just for a point of clarity, 84/85 weren't wedded specifically to NSW, the support they gave to NSW simply happened to be more due to colocation with the Teams (San Diego and Norfolk). There was a significant amount of support requested from and provided to other services, especially while deployed. It's important because it highlights that the CNO decided he didn't want to fund a Navy unit to support all of SOCOM, it wasn't that he didn't want to fund a NSW specific helo unit.

By the way, JSOC doesn't count, they are their own little black world and get whatever they want, to include 1st Batt and the even more secret squirrel aviation units.

As for the support from the white SOF side of the 160th and AFSOC...on paper they can cover all the stuff that 84/85 covered, and that's how they pitched it to SOCOM actual and that's partly why SOCOM pulled their financial support for 84/85.

However, when reality rears it's ugly head, NSW/SF/MARSOC are already losing events that the 160th can't support, both CONUS and OCONUS. Case in point, for the foreseable future, all in-CONUS leave has been cancelled for all of the 160th in order to support the customer's training events, and that's straight from guys I know in Campbell.

It's all semantics at this point as 84/85 are on the way down. However, it's not as rosy with the 160th and AFSOC as some previous posts have suggested.

Unfortunately, in the end, the guy on the ground is going to lose capability they previously had, regardless of who is flying the remaining helos.

 

[DocT]

Will be interesting to see if the Navy V-22 is vanilla like the USMC MV-22 or has the extra wing tanks and terrain following radar in the USAF CV-22.

I'd be shocked if that happened. They're buying a COD platform.