Why are you Leaving?

[MIDNJAC]

I don't know how the HSM/HSC(cv) COs are interacting w/ CAGs on deployments, etc, but as for the possibility of one of them being CAG some day, the argument against that using the night Case III with strained nerves, etc, doesn't work for me. It's just as much of a mismatch for a FW CAG to be calling the shots for a $45M MH-60R (plus 3+ crew) struggling home w/ low whatever pressure as it is for a RW CAG to be calling the shots for a $60M Rhino (+1-2 crew) struggling to get home for whatever it is that makes jet sphincters tighten. Whatever the case, I'd expect the respective squadron leadership to be in the room too, and a good CAG would call on the advice as appropriate.

When it comes to calling the shots and literally or figuratively leading the wing to make strikes (or whatever big movements the wing is doing), I think it's more nuanced than just "RW pilots can never hack it." HSM/C pilots on CVs who aren't taking the opportunity to get smart on what everyone else in the wing does are pigeon-holing themselves. We might not be there right now, because a generation of pilots have been in HSL and on the CSG sidelines, but once current HSM DHs are up for major command, maybe one will be there. Might be better than the worst RHINOWSO has seen.

I'd say that the CV area FW leadership that I mentioned is important because 90% of the cycle is FW tacair. And by that, mostly if all F/A-18 of some flavor. Is that to say that the reverse isn't also true (ie FW CAG doesn't know about RW considerations)? Absolutely not. But by the numbers, most everyone is in a Hornet of some flavor, and many are also alone and unafraid in a single seat jet without a built in book reader, or in the FNG position, built in sanity checker.....unlike RW who is going to have someone with experience on the ICS I'd imagine. Without going down a minutia rabbit hole, I'd just say that a VFA CAG is going to have a better handle on what the majority of the airwing is doing compared to an HS/HSC/HSM or otherwise RW CAG.

I can't speak to the O-5+ level of RW aviation, but I do know that the vast majority of O-2 through O-4 RW aviators I knew had literally no clue what we do beyond a very rudimentary understanding of the launch/recovery process. As a guy who stood XR with typically a helo XP, it was almost always me acting as interpreter for VFA considerations, whether that be the tanker plan, or really anything else beyond that involving spares or in country flow. That isn't to make the job of romeo sound important......it absolutely was un-needed IMHO, but I did get a general sense of the helo understanding of fixed wing, and it was basically nothing at all. No slight against them, it isn't their job, and my understanding of RW ops was abysmally small as well, but in terms of facts, that is what I saw. I'm sure the ideal would be that they would have a solid understanding of other communities like tacair, but that is not what I saw (and same could be said about VFA when talking about RW)

 

[Beans]

I'd say that the CV area FW leadership that I mentioned is important because 90% of the cycle is FW tacair. And by that, mostly if all F/A-18 of some flavor. Is that to say that the reverse isn't also true (ie FW CAG doesn't know about RW considerations)? Absolutely not. But by the numbers, most everyone is in a Hornet of some flavor, and many are also alone and unafraid in a single seat jet without a built in book reader, or in the FNG position, built in sanity checker.....unlike RW who is going to have someone with experience on the ICS I'd imagine. Without going down a minutia rabbit hole, I'd just say that a VFA CAG is going to have a better handle on what the majority of the airwing is doing compared to an HS/HSC/HSM or otherwise RW CAG.

I can't speak to the O-5+ level of RW aviation, but I do know that the vast majority of O-2 through O-4 RW aviators I knew had literally no clue what we do beyond a very rudimentary understanding of the launch/recovery process. As a guy who stood XR with typically a helo XP, it was almost always me acting as interpreter for VFA considerations, whether that be the tanker plan, or really anything else beyond that involving spares or in country flow. That isn't to make the job of romeo sound important......it absolutely was un-needed IMHO, but I did get a general sense of the helo understanding of fixed wing, and it was basically nothing at all. No slight against them, it isn't their job, and my understanding of RW ops was abysmally small as well, but in terms of facts, that is what I saw. I'm sure the ideal would be that they would have a solid understanding of other communities like tacair, but that is not what I saw (and same could be said about VFA when talking about RW)

A CAG (shouldn't) have to be a micromanager. Just for an example, the VFA CAGs I've seen still ask questions about VFA stuff (for example, when was the last time you think they've sat and looked at a new TOPGUN manual?)

Yeah, agree with both of you guys. To MIDNJAC, I agree with you that that's how things are now. I think both of these things should change. Instead of it being "due course" for JOs to bang out JPME before their DH board, how a process to learn about the other subspecialties in our own friggin designator? We'd be much better war-fighters and able to do more than what we did in the last war (such as a fleet v fleet blue water conflict) if we focused more on things like that. Instead, I have a very robust high-level appreciation of what it means to be an officer. Greeaaaat.

And the above is actually why I'd want to stay in, to maybe have a chance of changing that from either the inside/below or, far later on, from above. But the prospects of me ever getting that far along and not just becoming another company man are muy pequeno, and my wife's prospects of going far in her field are way better. That, my friends, is why I'm getting out.

 

[hummerhole]

@hummerhole, welcome aboard AW!
BzB

Thank you, sir. I've read your story and you are a true American hero. Thank you for your service.

 

[squorch2]

I wouldn't expect a SWO admiral to override the CAG's decision/recommendation either way

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[RHINOWSO]

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

Solid gold...

 

[Beans]

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

So you're telling me that a SWO admiral would say "no, don't divert that jet, let's bring it aboard" if the CAG wanted to divert? I'm not talking about other stuff that might even have a tiny bit of overlap w/ the admiral's direct experience. But OK, I am far more idealistic and ignorant than I thought (common error). Now that's also why I'm getting out. I need the time to build my bunker and ammo stash.

Even after being corrected there, I'd still be surprised. I tend to expect a degree of reasonability from people. It's a recipe for perpetual disappointment, but it's how my brain works.

 

[nittany03]

I tend to expect a degree of reasonability from people. It's a recipe for perpetual disappointment, but it's how my brain works.

Good for you. What parts of that expectation remained after the USN was finished, the USNR is seemingly hellbent on purging from my mind.

 

[squorch2]

So you're telling me that a SWO admiral would say "no, don't divert that jet, let's bring it aboard" if the CAG wanted to divert? I'm not talking about other stuff that might even have a tiny bit of overlap w/ the admiral's direct experience. But OK, I am far more idealistic and ignorant than I thought (common error). Now that's also why I'm getting out. I need the time to build my bunker and ammo stash.

Even after being corrected there, I'd still be surprised. I tend to expect a degree of reasonability from people. It's a recipe for perpetual disappointment, but it's how my brain works.

I hear you, but having lived that life (CVN TAO under a SWO admiral) I can tell you that he put his hands in everything, in every unit under his command. It's frustrating as all hell while you're doing it, and laughable in hindsight.

 

[BigRed389]

I hear you, but having lived that life (CVN TAO under a SWO admiral) I can tell you that he put his hands in everything, in every unit under his command. It's frustrating as all hell while you're doing it, and laughable in hindsight.

Overriding CAG on a call like that? Really? Putting hands in it and showing up to "observe" or wanting to be informed, even "being seen to be the one making decisions" or otherwise obtrusive and annoying behavior I could see, but overriding CAG (or other senior aviator advice) on an ORM issue seems to be a level of dumb that should've been filtered out by that point. Or so I hope.

 

[RHINOWSO]

Again, it all comes down to most don't trust leadership - the years of micromanaging, backstabbing, and not looking out for people have taken their toll.

It's not about a single call, or single event. Its years of built up frustration. I don't trust Navy leadership, or shall I say management, since it is largely devoid of anything resembling "leaderhip" - it usually starts around the O-5 level, the majority at the O-6 level, and if you have stars...? Well then everything out of your mouth is suspect. EVERYTHING. Because at that stage it's all about keeping up with the Jonses, getting the next job to get the next star and climb the ladder...

JMO but from experience, I'm certainly not alone in feeling this way. In fact quite the opposite...

 

[RHINOWSO]

Overriding CAG on a call like that? Really? Putting hands in it and showing up to "observe" or wanting to be informed, even "being seen to be the one making decisions" or otherwise obtrusive and annoying behavior I could see, but overriding CAG (or other senior aviator advice) on an ORM issue seems to be a level of dumb that should've been filtered out by that point. Or so I hope.

How long has it been since you've been hands on with that kind of thing?

 

[Uncle Fester]

I doubt many officers set out to micromanage - excuse me, "lead intrusively" - but it's hard to blame them. There's a culture and expectation that you as the boss will be held accountable for any little fuckup by people in your command, so it's not surprising that so many get twitchy and want to have their hands on the wheel all the time. "If I could get fired for what you do, I want final say on how you do it".

It shouldn't be that way, but it is. It's a ripple effect of total oversight that comes from 24-hour news, everyone having a video camera in their pocket, and social media.

 

[hummerhole]

Look, slight thread jack here based off my previous post.

I'm not one of those hawkeye fos who whines about equality but my question is still there: why are almost all the CAGs fighter guys? Being a CAG less to do with fighter tactics (which I've already stated that most CAGs I have seen ..their knowledge is outdated) and more with being a manager of assets. So why does it seem to matter what carrier based aircraft you fly? It seems like it's becoming a good old boys network, much like there's a rise in hawkeye fos commanding carriers.

 

[Beans]

It shouldn't be that way, but it is. It's a ripple effect of total oversight that comes from 24-hour news, everyone having a video camera in their pocket, and social media.

Well, the graybeards here might have some insight on to this, but the sense I get from folks here is that it's a problem older than social media and 24-hr news. I think as the available frequency of communication goes up (how many messages can be sent from subordinate to superior and back in a given time), the ability to micromanage goes up. Since there's a natural desire to cover one's ass, now that we can, we do. This goes from the public to the govt (thru 24-hr news), "national authorities" to "national assets," and within any number of smaller organizations. Anyway, just a theory. Anyone at NPS and need a thesis?

 

[Uncle Fester]

Well, the graybeards here might have some insight on to this, but the sense I get from folks here is that it's a problem older than social media and 24-hr news. I think as the available frequency of communication goes up (how many messages can be sent from subordinate to superior and back in a given time), the ability to micromanage goes up. Since there's a natural desire to cover one's ass, now that we can, we do. This goes from the public to the govt (thru 24-hr news), "national authorities" to "national assets," and within any number of smaller organizations. Anyway, just a theory. Anyone at NPS and need a thesis?

Micromanagers are a problem as old as time...what I was getting at was the impulse behind it now. Take for example the "peeing on enemy corpses" scandal the Marines had a few years ago. Pictures all over the news and Interwebz and everyone from SecNav and the CMC on down are crawling up asses because everyone's demanding an explanation, for something that should've been handled at the company or battalion level. Or the CAPT Honors thing on Enterprise...disgruntled subordinate had the ability to zap all those videos to the press. However you feel about what he did, I imagine we'd all agree that splashing it all over the news and rounding up a civilian lynch mob wasn't the way to handle it. There was a time that unless a reporter/photographer was handy, odds are a fuck-up would be kept - and hopefully dealt with - in-house. Now anything could become public at any time, with pictures and video, and you, the skipper, are woken up by CNO's watchstander at 0300 asking why there are pictures on CNN of your petty officers duct-taping a female to a bulkhead.