You're right. It is a better determination of who needs to stop smoking a pack a day, put down the fritos, and take their ass to the gym.
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The further decline of personal accountability...
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phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
And you wonder why Marines laugh at the Navy...
Our standards have remained the same* for the entire time I've been wearing a uniform (that would be 19 years ago that I graduated boot camp). Whereas the Navy is lax, the Navy's strict, the Navy's lax, the Navy's strict. squorch is right. It has nothing to do with your physical fitness.
Whereas we actually care about ours.
*And by same, I mean there have been slight tweaks. We used to be able to kip for pullups, women used to run 1 1/2 miles, etc... But the overall standards have remained the same. Fail a PFT? There's your adverse fitrep, BCP, and if you can't get off BCP - there's the door.
Eh ... you guys. We don't steeenkin' NEED to stop smoking. We smoked WHILE we ran:
Image by A4sForever
I'd like to further answer this post later...like when I transfer. But in the meantime, since we're in agreement that it's not actually about healthy lifestyle (at least in execution), I still haven't heard how me (a typical sailor, not a SEAL, swimmer or even a pilot) running a 9:30 makes me able to do my job better than if I run it in a 12:00 (assuming everything else is w/in standards). Am I really that much more of a war-fighter if I do 80 situps instead of 70?
For the Marines, I absolutely understand why it matters more to them. But for the typical sailor, I just don't see it.
That's the problem...we in the Navy always revert back to the "it's not important if I'm physically fit as long as I can do my job." Thus, there is no physical fitness mentality in the Navy. For the Marines, not every Marine carries a rifle in combat. They have Admin, Supply, Comms, and all that other shit too. However, they all still have to PT. It doesn't matter.Bottom line...to cultivate an atmosphere of physical betterment, we are going to have to change the way that PT is evaluated. There are other blocks on the FitRep form besides how well you do your job. There are those out there that do their job very well AND have great PT scores. Until the PT mentality (and the evaluation system) make significant changes, you are going to continue to have fat sailors. I personally think it should start in bootcamp...I know that OCS is WAY harder than enlisted boot camp. However, after that there's nothing and the Marines will continue to laugh at us in the locker room.
BTW...
No, but there is a significant amount of mental toughness and fortitude required to bang out those last ten. That toughness translates well into other aspects of the military including self discipline, motivation, and the desire to excel. As an officer, if your enlisted guys saw you push to bang out those last ten, they would push too.
And I am in no way questioning your mental toughness or ability as a leader, I'm just giving my opinion
So what?
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Bottom line, it's not how PT/PFT/PRT/PFA is evaluated/marked on a FitRep. It's a cultural mindset. Every Marine Officer is trained to be a provisional rifle platoon commander. And every enlisted Marine is trained to be a basic infantryman. It's why we are required to qualify on Rifle/Pistol every year, why the CFT/PFT is required with the same standards across the board. When the proverbial shit hits the fan and they're grabbing admin, supply, comms, and all that other shit to be a provisional rifle platoon - it's not time to say "but I'm just a typical non-infantry Marine".
It's this mindset/training mindset that enables an Infantry Battalion(-) tasked with providing perimeter security for an airfield to look at the ACE and say - "We need you to secure the North/East sides".
yeah, unfortunately we don't have that requirement in the Navy, hence the piss poor physical condition of our people.
In response to the "so what", I just personally think that the Navy could PT a little harder and take a little more pride in how we wear our uniforms. It's just my opinion on how the Navy "looks" when stacked against our brethren in green. It doesn't mean that I think that Navy is messed up across the board, but I do think there is room for improvement in those areas.
In response to the "so what", I just personally think that the Navy could PT a little harder and take a little more pride in how we wear our uniforms. It's just my opinion on how the Navy "looks" when stacked against our brethren in green. It doesn't mean that I think that Navy is messed up across the board, but I do think there is room for improvement in those areas.
I'll pass that onto a college friend of mine Vic Bruni who coincidentally had SSGT Bowling around your time frame. I realize there are no guarantees in life but "that job" and not getting close to old age is truly sad.
Bottom line...to cultivate an atmosphere of physical betterment, we are going to have to change the way that PT is evaluated. There are other blocks on the FitRep form besides how well you do your job. There are those out there that do their job very well AND have great PT scores. Until the PT mentality (and the evaluation system) make significant changes, you are going to continue to have fat sailors. I personally think it should start in bootcamp...I know that OCS is WAY harder than enlisted boot camp. However, after that there's nothing and the Marines will continue to laugh at us in the locker room.
I appreciate your sentiment and agree in principle that all of our Sailors ought to be in top physical form, but that ignores the reality of the other demands that are placed on squadrons. Bottom line, there just isn't enough time to devote to fitness when we're expecting that all of the other requirements get done. I don't know how recently you've had go through a set of work-ups and deployment, but to say that it's an aggressive schedule would be putting it lightly. How does a Skipper ask his people to bust their asses for 14+ hours a day, 6-7 days a week, dets to the boat, dets to Fallon, cruise, then do it all over again and OBTW ask them to remember to PT five times a week so they can add part time athlete to their evals. Ain't gonna happen. I suspect that unless you've been a DH or CO, you probably can't appreciate the juggling that goes on so that a squadron can meet its operational commitments. Ensuring that Airman Jones' PFA score goes from SAT to EXCELLENT is about #327 on the list of things a CO cares about. That is the reality we live in.
Brett
It certainly is not impossible, it's just not something the Navy seems to care about as much. (not that there's anything wrong with that)
Maybe physical fitness scores aren't why you are getting laughed at in the locker room?
Brett: That seems like a cop-out to me. Marines do the same workups as well and are still responsible for their physical fitness.
message edited / deleted. hearing mom in the back of my head...if you can't say something nice...... Bottom line - Lots of folks with high optempos - working as many hours as you imply (and I don't doubt) requires little time for PT - just a little discipline to push away from the table. I'm an example.
Does my experience level qualify me to have an opinion?
Do Marine units doing same workups ensure they give their Marines time to PT? Navy commands operationally stressed generally don't (along with time at home, weekends, etc.) b/c as Brett said, it's at the bottom of the pile of priorities. Especially when the people making decisions have PT requirements half that of their junior guys.
We had ZERO PRT failures last cycle, but we also schedule time during working hours to PT every day (as per CNO guidance).