Stupid questions about the Rhino (Super Hornet)

[HeyJoe]

I couldn't agree more, but if you've ever seen the "actual" JSF that Boeing was "going" to produce with a similar tail structure as the F-35.....it actually didn't look all that bad, just sucks their technology demonstrators were hideous.

You're skipping over a major issue as to why they lost. The tech demostrators were supposed to be pretty close to what would be produced hence the willingness of govt to fund them for the assessment of the two contenders. To not make your demonstrator indicative of your final design is foolhardy. hardware on the ramp counts much more than a Powerpoint promise.

Boeing discovered their initial design needed horizontal stabs in the process, but did not include them in their demonstrator so the risk assessment went up.

Regardless, the design in your photo still had that guppy belly. It's just masked by the angle. In the words of a driving companion last week pulling into Pax and him seeing the demonstrator for first time. "What were they thinking?"

 

[bert]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the strategic impact of losing a crew of 2 just about as bad as losing 1? I get what you are saying about the general trend to UAV's, but who is going to say "whew, at least there was only 1 guy in that aircraft, not 2" when an F-35 crashes behind enemy lines in the next war?

UAV's are "better" because eliminating the live crew saves weight/cubic/$$$ because you don't need the requisite support for the live bodies. The fact that the vehicle's loss doesn't bring the loss of life is (depending upon the mission) either a nice bonus or a key factor in approving/accomplishing the mission.

^ and HJ is spot on as usual - when you are talking these amounts of money risk matters.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Neat! A U2 guy who couldn't tell the difference either way.

What's even cooler is a Phrog guy that knows a thing or two about the subject!

If he's an experienced AC-130 guy, then I'd love to hear what he has to say. Seriously. AC-130s is the one area of the CAS world that I have little first hand knowledge. I've seen the videos and I've heard their lectures. I just haven't controlled one or seen it up close.

I would be interested to hear his take on the subject as well. I've seen the videos, heard the lectures and had a chance to control one during a TACP shoot. Honestly, it didn't "feel" like CAS to me, felt more like Arty Call for Fire. Especially since everyone had to go into check fire when they were on station. I'm guessing that was more of a training-ism than a real-life type thing.

 

[Harrier Dude]

What's even cooler is a Phrog guy that knows a thing or two about the subject!


I would be interested to hear his take on the subject as well. I've seen the videos, heard the lectures and had a chance to control one during a TACP shoot. Honestly, it didn't "feel" like CAS to me, felt more like Arty Call for Fire. Especially since everyone had to go into check fire when they were on station. I'm guessing that was more of a training-ism than a real-life type thing.

I'm guessing not. If I have a beef with the AC-130, even though I have very limited exposure to it, it's the fact that they're "special". You're 100% correct about them being more like arty CFF. The procedure is very different for them than for the rest of the CAS world. That's one of the reasons I'm looking forward to him clearing up the "ignorance" of the people on this thread. Maybe he can tell me how to run a 9-line in a high threat enviroment during daytime operations. He's the expert after all, right?

 

[phrogpilot73]

I'm guessing not. If I have a beef with the AC-130, even though I have very limited exposure to it, it's the fact that they're "special". You're 100% correct about them being more like arty CFF. The procedure is very different for them than for the rest of the CAS world. That's one of the reasons I'm looking forward to him clearing up the "ignorance" of the people on this thread. Maybe he can tell me how to run a 9-line in a high threat enviroment during daytime operations. He's the expert after all, right?

The rest of the CAS world lets me say "cleared hot" without waiting for their sensor operator to acquire every friendly position from here to South Carolina...

 

[HeyJoe]

Maybe he can tell me how to run a 9-line in a high threat enviroment during daytime operations. He's the expert after all, right?

Daytime and AC-130 doesn't go togther as they are like vampires and can't stand the light of day.....(in most situations)

 

[Harrier Dude]

Daytime and AC-130 doesn't go togther as they are like vampires and can't stand the light of day.....(in most situations)

Really??

I had absolutely no idea! I thought that they were the be-all and end-all of CAS. The rest of us are just ignorant and have much to learn from the air force in general, and the AC-130 community in particular.

I really would like to hear about CAS in the AC-130 from somebody that flies them, though. Limitations not withstanding (as with us all), they have some great capabilities. I'd like to hear more about how they use them.

 

[eddie]

But seriously, if there is no difference between what the E and F Rhino can do, why build both? What's functional difference?

 

[cosmania]

I would like to get back to Boeing's initial offer of filling in for the Hornet A-D with the Super Hornet. I'm just a simple, has-been stick monkey, but how on earth could they be serious in making an offer to the DOD to sell their new product to replace their prematurely aging old product?

"Here look at this shiny new airplane!!!! Disregard the fact that the early versions that you are currently flying are crapping out like Yugos" (said the smiling exec.)

That takes balls!

 

[VetteMuscle427]

"Here look at this shiny new airplane!!!! Disregard the fact that the early versions that you are currently flying are crapping out like Yugos" (said the smiling exec.)

That takes balls!

Well... what was the life expectancy of the aircraft when they were originally purchased? If they have performed as advertised as well as promised for as long as promised... why not offer to sell them a replacement that is working well enough already?

 

[Fog]

What is wrong with my CRT? We're buying fighters from the transport-bomber builder, Boeing, and 2G E-2's from Grumman Iron Works!? Tens of thousands of dead naval aviators are rolling over in their graves!

Don't anyone get me wrong: Hawkeyes have been telling fighters where to go for decades. E-2's are great planes, but their type is not what Grumman built the legend on

 

[VetteMuscle427]

What is wrong with my CRT? We're buying fighters from the transport-bomber builder, Boeing, and 2G E-2's from Grumman Iron Works!? Tens of thousands of dead naval aviators are rolling over in their graves!

Don't hate on the Mighty War Hawkeye! Best in the business! When all those precious Superbugs are gone... we're still going to be flying around telling UCAVs where to go.

 

[HeyJoe]

Well... what was the life expectancy of the aircraft when they were originally purchased? If they have performed as advertised as well as promised for as long as promised... why not offer to sell them a replacement that is working well enough already?

This is a really important point. Although "surprises" can occur like Center Barrel Replacement issue, when an aircraft is procured, it is expected to be used at a certain predictable "OPTEMPO", which allows FLE (Fatigue Life Expended) and Cats/Traps (if applicable) to be projected. Certain assumptions are cranked in and what is sapping life out of Hornets of all flavors as well as P-3 community is the ongoing GWOT OPTEMPO is accelerating the aging of the airframes at alarming rate(s). Sometimes, you can "add" life back but replacing key components (like wings). Sometimes, you have to park 'em.

 

[Harrier Dude]

This is a really important point. Although "surprises" can occur like Center Barrel Replacement issue, when an aircraft is procured, it is expected to be used at a certain predictable "OPTEMPO", which allows FLE (Fatigue Life Expended) and Cats/Traps (if applicable) to be projected. Certain assumptions are cranked in and what is sapping life out of Hornets of all flavors as well as P-3 community is the ongoing GWOT OPTEMPO is accelerating the aging of the airframes at alarming rate(s). Sometimes, you can "add" life back but replacing key components (like wings). Sometimes, you have to park 'em.

This point ties in well to what somebody (Flash, Wink?) said in another thread about the demand for ISR. Right now, ALL aircraft in theatre that provide ISR are trying to keep pace with the insatiable demand for sensors on station. Aircraft are overflying their flight hour budget by huge margins. Although not really stressful flying on the aircraft, the hours are piling up at an alarming rate. It doesn't help that COs are being "graded" on how many flight hours are flown and how many bombs are dropped. If you say "no" or push back on the hours, you're "not supporting the grunts" or "babying the nasty airwing pilots". That may well be true. There is a lot of validity to the assertion that we're here to support them and we should give them what they want. The problem is that we are wearing out our aircraft faster than anybody anticipated. That's not a huge problem now, but we'll have to pay the piper sooner or later. Something hyas to be flying until we get JSF or P-8 or whatever.

Add to that the somewhat "older" trend of CV COs/CAGs trying to out-do each other in numbers of traps per cruise and it's kind of a sad waste of assets in some cases.

 

[HooverPilot]

...the ongoing GWOT OPTEMPO is accelerating the aging of the airframes at alarming rate(s). Sometimes, you can "add" life back but replacing key components (like wings). Sometimes, you have to park 'em.

We've been having to put "new" E-2 wings on the C-2 for this reason and we're also doing a SLEP... At least jumps and drops have once again been authorized!