NEWS New Female Officer Uniform Testing

[Flash]

I saw this article about women wear-testing the new uniforms at the USNA graduation this year and was wondering what folks thought?

While I think there could be some improvements to the female uniforms I am not sure that making them almost the same as male uniforms, to include the combo covers, is the way to go. I am also not sure this is a problem in need of a solution when there doesn't seem to be a push to change the uniforms from the services, in particular this seems to pushed primarily by SECNAV himself and he is pushing it with the Marines as well, but then I don't have to wear a female uniform so what the hell do I know?

 

[ea6bflyr]

Somebody thinks it's a problem otherwise they wouldn't be changing them. On the other hand, the uniform board has to do something to make money for the NEX, otherwise why would they exist?

 

[Flash]

Somebody thinks it's a problem otherwise they wouldn't be changing them. On the other hand, the uniform board has to do something to make money for the NEX, otherwise why would they exist?

As I mentioned it appears SECNAV is the driving force behind this and since he is the boss....

 

[wink]

I agree with Flash. Not a real problem. Don't see the need for identical male female uniforms. Frankly, a combo cover on most women looks ridiculous. As is, the working uniforms ARE identical, or very nearly so. What is the problem with recognizing the inherent differences in men and women in the more formal uniforms? No wait, I know the answer to that. A segment of our society believes there is no inherent difference between the genders. A different uniform for females is seen as demeaning their value verses military men setting them apart as not really on the same team as co-equals. Guarantee, something along those lines is behind this!!

 

[Uncle Fester]

I've heard Mrs Fester's opinion on female uniforms over the years. Biggest complaint I've heard from her and other females in the service is that women's uniforms just aren't designed to fit right on female bodies, not that they don't look enough like the men's uniforms. Still, I guess I see the merit in having the dress uniforms look a bit more, well, uniform.

 

[wink]

.... Still, I guess I see the merit in having the dress uniforms look a bit more, well, uniform.

I actually think there is enough uniformity between the male/female uniforms. There is no mistaking they play for the same team. Had a female naval officer in my wedding sword arch (friend of my wife's not me). Only thing made her look out of place was the wearing of the sword belt outside her uniform. She was a dircom OIS body so she just didn't know better, and none of my buddies had any idea.

 

[Uncle Fester]

I actually think there is enough uniformity between the male/female uniforms. There is no mistaking they play for the same team. Had a female naval officer in my wedding sword arch (friend of my wife's not me). Only thing made her look out of place was the wearing of the sword belt outside her uniform. She was a dircom OIS body so she just didn't know better, and none of my buddies had any idea.

Oh I don't know; I think it might just be obvious to you and me because it's our house, you know? We had a female friend of Mrs Fester's in our sword arch, too. In the female dress whites, several of our civvie guests asked her what service she was in. I don't think SECNAV wants to fiddle with the dress uniforms because there's a "problem" - what would constitute a problem with a dress uniform, anyway? As opposed to working/utility uniforms where there are definitely several problems. But I think there's some merit in making the differences between male and female uniforms a bit less jarring. I don't know about the unisex covers - I live in Annapolis and the female middies have been walking around with them for a couple of years now; it still doesn't look quite right to me. But if the uniform is jacket-and-tie for one, make it for both. If it's a standing collar for one, make it for both. I like that they're bringing in female blue crackerjacks, for uniformity's sake but also because female blues just look like crap and they're hard to maintain on ship.

Cut and design that look good are important; Mrs Fester and other female instructors were very happy when the Navy adopted the Marine khaki unbloused-blouse a few years back. But it's not really a jarring difference between the male and female.

Interesting to me that they're changing the female Marine blues as well.

 

[Recovering LSO]

The part of this that confuses me: aren't we supposed to (rightfully so) embrace the differences that make us a "diverse" force? What's wrong with being a woman, and wearing a woman's uniform? If gender is a "diverstiy" category the same as ethnicity or race, then why would you make a woman dress like a man, but not then ask someone with darker skin to apply cosmetics to look more like "everyone else?" It sounds stupid becaues it is. And since we're talking in the realm of stupid, why is the male uniform the one to conform to? Skirts and pumps for everyone - you now because uniformity...

I've learned that sometimes the best way to kill and idea is not to say "no", but to say "yes" and then slow roll it until the good idea fairy leaves office. Maybe the individual who thinks this is a good idea has more staying power than the staffers anticipated.

 

[Randy Daytona]

"LT Lake, you're almost out of uniform."

 

[Uncle Fester]

The part of this that confuses me: aren't we supposed to (rightfully so) embrace the differences that make us a "diverse" force? What's wrong with being a woman, and wearing a woman's uniform? If gender is a "diverstiy" category the same as ethnicity or race, then why would you make a woman dress like a man, but not then ask someone with darker skin to apply cosmetics to look more like "everyone else?" It sounds stupid becaues it is. And since we're talking in the realm of stupid, why is the male uniform the one to conform to? Skirts and pumps for everyone - you now because uniformity...

I've learned that sometimes the best way to kill and idea is not to say "no", but to say "yes" and then slow roll it until the good idea fairy leaves office. Maybe the individual who thinks this is a good idea has more staying power than the staffers anticipated.

Well, by that logic, why don't we fully embrace diversity and just have everyone wear what they wore when they enlisted? I think they can find a middle ground that has uniforms that fit and look good on female O's and E's while still looking uniform. A lot of the current female dress uniforms look bad, don't fit well, cost more (e.g., striping dress whites), and don't look like their male counterparts. Those seem like pretty good reasons to tinker around for something improved.

 

[Recovering LSO]

I think they can find a middle ground that has uniforms that fit and look good on female O's and E's while still looking uniform. A lot of the current female dress uniforms look bad, don't fit well, cost more (e.g., striping dress whites), and don't look like their male counterparts. Those seem like pretty good reasons to tinker around for something improved.

Agreed, however I think there is a middle ground that involves improving female uniforms (khaki blouse is a good example), without asking women to dress like men. Again, what's wrong with being a female Sailor?

Anticipating CommodoreMid and other women here to chime in with their thoughts.

 

[Flash]

A lot of the current female dress uniforms look bad, don't fit well, cost more (e.g., striping dress whites), and don't look like their male counterparts. Those seem like pretty good reasons to tinker around for something improved.

I always wondered why they had the gold sleeve insignia and not shoulder boards, especially when the Coast Guard has shoulder boards for their female dress white uniforms. I am all for making the uniforms more practical and comfortable for women but am a little baffled why such a hard push to make them so much more similar to man's uniforms in the Navy and Marines when none of the other services are doing it. Like I said before, this seems to be a SECNAV thing he is pushing hard.

...Anticipating CommodoreMid and other women here to chime in with their thoughts.

I was hoping for that too.

 

[klamsy]

I hate the trend towards gender-neutralizing dress uniforms. It seems like it's there to "fix" a problem that doesn't exist, as a cheap and lazy way to appease outsiders who want "gender equality" in the military. No female in the military that I know is clamoring for this shit.
The current uniforms aren't perfect (I would like more than one pocket, for example, and I think changing the Navy SDWs to have shoulderboards makes a lot of sense), but really, they're fine if they're tailored properly. They look professional without making women appear mannish. I'm not trying to look hot in my dress blues or anything, but if I can retain at least a shread of femininity at formal events that's a plus. I don't feel like "less of a Marine" or any of that bullshit by not wearing the same thing as the dudes at the Ball or a Mess Night, and (maybe I'm wrong), I don't think I'm taken less seriously by my male peers for wearing something slightly different.
The pictures in the article look horrible, like they're little boys playing dress up. It seems like the new uniforms require excessive amounts of tailoring to fit right, and would be a nightmare on those with bigger girls, broad shoulders, or weird shaped bodies. On most women, I think it would look stupid and unprofessional.
In fairness,there are plenty of guys natrually lacking the recruiting-poster body that don't look great in chokers/dress blues either (not to mention those whose size has, uh, adjusted since MIDN/O-1 days), but on the whole most men look fine if it's decently tailored.

Also, it fucking blows that this has to happen at graduation. This is a huge day these mids have been looking forward to for years, and they spend it having to be guinea pigs for somebody's stupid pet project. Awesome.

 

[CAMike]

"LT Lake, you're almost out of uniform."

This one is not out of uniform. Sometimes less makeup is better.

 

[CommodoreMid]

I'm actually all for putting shoulder boards on as it would save me money striping my dress whites (which I have worn a grand total of 3 times in my 7 years as an officer). My beef, like many other women, is that they're "fixing" a problem that doesn't exist. We want the Navy to fix the abortion that is the cut and fit of our uniform pants first and foremost. True story here. When I was a 3/C mid on CORTRAMID I had been hanging out with another mid for 2 weeks, but he hadn't seen me out of uniform in that time. We go to the beach and (I attribute this to the fact that the dude was from VMI and didn't know how to speak to women) he literally says to me "I didn't realize you weren't fat." Women's uniforms were designed in WWII when women wore girdles and thus look terrible. Plus, the tops don't recognize the fact that women today do things like weight lifting. I lift a lot and that, plus my chest, makes me look ridiculous as I have to buy uniform shirts that would probably fit me on the waist when I pregnant. I love how they're wear testing this uniform on 19-21 year old midshipmen who are, for the most part, smaller than the average Navy woman. If you put me in a choker top I would be busting out and look completely unprofessional.

I'd like to turn the table. Why does gender neutral mean women have to wear men's uniforms? Why don't men adopt the suit that women have in dress whites? Hell, I think women's SDBs look better than men's for the most part. Most men, unless they're gigantic, look stupid in double breasted suits. I propose male SDBs conform to women's in being single breasted.

Don't even get me started on the combo cover....kill it with fire!!!! I swear if they make a rule saying women can wear the old style (because let's face it they're going to adopt this travesty regardless of the fact most women don't want it) until it's unserviceable, I'm buying the O-5/O-6 one now in advance and if I don't make it that far I'm selling it. Hell, I just want to retain this cover because in whites/blues I have no useable pockets so I use my cover as a bucket to contain my wallet/phone/keys because there is no way in hell you'd catch me carrying that abortion they call a regulation uniform purse.