Navy Reserve COVID Vaccinations by October

[Mirage]

Here's some follow on questions for you, @Brett327. What do you think the consequences would be for an admiral who disobeyed an order that he felt was immoral or strongly disagreed with?

What should be the consequences for you if you offered your resignation because you could not obey an order you strongly disagreed with?

What would you do if, for some reason in some future time (just bear with me) you were ordered to take some drug that you thought might seriously harm you in exchange for little benefit? Because, rational to you or not, that's the situation many find themselves in.

These are serious questions I really hope you'll humor me and answer honestly. I'm curious just how far off we are in our thinking.

 

[Brett327]

It's quite simple. Everyone gets to choose what orders they follow, but you only get to say no once. The question is what are the consequences? For cowardice I'd advocate a harsh penalty. For this vax order, compassion, understanding, and an honorable discharge. No can of worms.

So your position seems to be that you'll only follow the orders that you agree with, plus the ones you don't agree with as long as the consequences don't meet some threshold. That's certainly an interesting leadership philosophy. You'll stick around and pretend to do this military thing until it becomes inconvenient, then you'll break the law and bail as long as it's not too painful to do so. Fascinating.

Wonder what your stance would be when AM2 Smith decides to take a shortcut when installing a hydraulic line in your aircraft. He has assessed the risk, and you probably won't have a catastrophic HYD failure, and probably nobody will get killed, and more than likely, the worst thing that would happen to him if this is discovered is a slap on the wrist. In fact, he has been lurking on this site, reading your posts, and following your example.

I can think of a dozen scenarios where this particular philosophy leads to a breakdown of good order and discipline, among other negative impacts. That doesn't seem to bother you though.

That is the can of worms I'm referring to.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

You heard it here first folks. Not getting a shot will directly lead to AM2 Beltbuckle killing you through maintenance malpractice. Holy shit.

At OCS they screwed up and wanted to give me a bunch of shots twice because signatures were missing. So I took my record around the corner and signed them myself. Then I fucking murdered a guy because one violated order is exactly the same as any other and once good order and discipline breaks down anything goes.

 

[Brett327]

Here's some follow on questions for you, @Brett327. What do you think the consequences would be for an admiral who disobeyed an order that he felt was immoral or strongly disagreed with?

What should be the consequences for you if you offered your resignation because you could not obey an order you strongly disagreed with?

What would you do if, for some reason in some future time (just bear with me) you were ordered to take some drug that you thought might seriously harm you in exchange for little benefit? Because, rational to you or not, that's the situation many find themselves in.

These are serious questions I really hope you'll humor me and answer honestly. I'm curious just how far off we are in our thinking.

There's a great book I recommend for you that will inform your thinking on these very topics. "On Obedience" by Dr. Pauline Shanks Kaurin of the USNWC. Let me know what you think of it.

 

[Mirage]

There's a great book I recommend for you that will inform your thinking on these very topics. "On Obedience" by Dr. Pauline Shanks Kaurin of the USNWC. Let me know what you think of it.

Would you mind answering the questions I asked?

 

[squorch2]

mRNA research has been going on for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRNA_vaccine#History

 

[Jim123]

mRNA research has been going on for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRNA_vaccine#History

Yep, and that's the case with a lot of medical research. Some of the mRNA stuff was for cancer research and some of it was for respiratory viruses after the SARS or bird flu epidemics (can't remember which or if it was both). They make progress but then things get put on the back burner as an epidemic burst out and funding dries up. Using mRNA to "teach" your immune system about a virus is a new~ish innovation in that people in the field started seriously talking about it about ten years ago. The distinction is instead of using an inactivated (dead) virus, or a weakened virus, or pieces of a virus, they use part of a protein molecule... which to me isn't entirely different. (Scientifically, I think the innovation is ingenious, but the analogy is a bit like somebody figured out if you're trying to fight a bear and the key is defending against the claws, then practice on little replicas of just fingertips and nails instead of practicing against the entire bear... ok sort of.)

The cancer research people have been quietly saying that the mRNA advances in the covid vaccines may very well open some big doors in cancer treatment. I wish we'd hear more about that instead of the drumbeat of everybody being angry at each other.

 

[Flash]

We agree.. they probably shouldn't be serving. But why threaten them with a OTH or worse discharge if this mandate changes their calculus and makes them decide they no longer want to meet the requirements of service? What is the point of, for example, waiving the normal BUMED rule that folks don't have to get vaccinated within 180 of separation or retirement? This isn't just about maintaining good order and discipline. It is political and, frankly, immature.

I haven't seen anything from the senior leadership of DoD or the services that says folks are going to get OTH discharges or worse, only that all disciplinary actions are on the table. I see it more as middle-level leadership taking some of their rhetoric a bit too far, which is not unusual unfortunately. I liken it to the threats I've heard since I got in about your death benefits and SGLI not being paid out if you died doing something illegal, which in the words of a Marine adjutant I worked with is "a big flaming pile of bullshit".

It is not leadership taking care of people or the force... it is leadership abusing its power to force the vax on as many people as possible, regardless of if it actually impacts readiness. I'm not arguing they cant do what they're doing.. I'm arguing they shouldn't. Have some compassion for your fellow man and, if he/she genuinely thinks the vaccine is so bad for him/her that they want to give up their career, then let them without penalty.

One of the main reasons our leadership is mandating the vaccine is because of readiness, to ensure we have a healthy and force that is deployable worldwide. As I've already enumerated, the vaccine is a critical component of that nowadays.

 

[Flash]

The FY 2022 DoD budget authorization specifically only allows an Honorable discharge and bans any other NJP or court martial proceeding for refusing the covid-19 vaccine. I guess it turns out the lawsuits incurred from the Anthrax snafoo wasn't worth the squeeze.

Then again, the bill isn't approved yet.

The anthrax issue was settled when the FDA approved it for use for all types of anthrax, to include inhalation, in 2005. After it was fully approved subsequent lawsuits were dismissed. That was why the military was waiting for fully approval of the vaccine, and now that one of them is fully approved the lawsuits will almost certainly be moot unless that one is not available or others are not fully approved in the meantime.

As for the actual language itself I would not be surprised if it did not get pushback from DoD as it constrains their options. It could be abused by folks who want an easy out, done with training and want out of your commitment? Refuse the shot with no consequences.

They're really not, though. Not with actual data, because the data is in its infancy.

Just because the data is in its infancy doesn't mean it doesn't exist, there was certainly enough for the vaccines to get emergency approval and for at least one so far to get full approval.

You're asking someone who's already skeptical to do the legwork and compare it to other similar vaccines. That's not how it works.

Some people have lost faith in the CDC, driven by them and Dr Fauci saying a bunch of wrong stuff. Yet if you go to the CDC website they basically say 'it's safe because we say so. Trust us.'

The CDC doesn't approve vaccines though.

 

[Mirage]

I haven't seen anything from the senior leadership of DoD or the services that says folks are going to get OTH discharges or worse, only that all disciplinary actions are on the table. I see it more as middle-level leadership taking some of their rhetoric a bit too far, which is not unusual unfortunately. I liken it to the threats I've heard since I got in about your death benefits and SGLI not being paid out if you died doing something illegal, which in the words of a Marine adjutant I worked with is "a big flaming pile of bullshit".

Saying all disciplinary actions are on the table is a statement intended to scare folks into submission. A.K.A., a threat. The threats my CO have given are just a more exact elaboration on what disciplinary actions could be taken.

One of the main reasons our leadership is mandating the vaccine is because of readiness, to ensure we have a healthy and force that is deployable worldwide. As I've already enumerated, the vaccine is a critical component of that nowadays.

Sure, that justification can be used for sea-going billets. If that were the goal, it could be a part of one's pre-deployment physicals. But military leadership isn't mandating the vaccine... that's Biden. Military leadership are, however, deciding to require it for folks separating within 180 days (the only vax these individuals can be required to get in this time frame), to deny exemptions, and to threaten severe punishments. Tell me again how requiring my friend, who will be on terminal leave when the mandate deadline expires, helps Navy readiness by getting the vax on his way out?

The CDC doesn't approve vaccines though.

The FDA does. And now, apparently, at the urging of Biden's CDC: https://www.businessinsider.com/2-top-fda-officials-resigned-biden-booster-plan-reports-2021-9

 

[Mirage]

New NAVADMIN covering policy WRT vax refusers: https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Portals/55/Messages/NAVADMIN/NAV2021/NAV21225.txt?ver=EfkG2psijI2X0IEKSId_5w==

Officers will be separated for cause, and enlisted will be ADSEP'd with either General or Honorable characterization. It doesn't say, but I assume the same characterization rules will apply for O's. So, assuming this is all they do (no NJP/CM), folks will be branded with a scarlet letter and kicked out. Will be tough for pilots in the civilian world for sure, but not sure how much other employers will care. Probably will depend on the business owner's political affiliation, unfortunately, with how political this all is.

So your position seems to be that you'll only follow the orders that you agree with, plus the ones you don't agree with as long as the consequences don't meet some threshold. That's certainly an interesting leadership philosophy. You'll stick around and pretend to do this military thing until it becomes inconvenient, then you'll break the law and bail as long as it's not too painful to do so. Fascinating.

Wonder what your stance would be when AM2 Smith decides to take a shortcut when installing a hydraulic line in your aircraft. He has assessed the risk, and you probably won't have a catastrophic HYD failure, and probably nobody will get killed, and more than likely, the worst thing that would happen to him if this is discovered is a slap on the wrist. In fact, he has been lurking on this site, reading your posts, and following your example.

I can think of a dozen scenarios where this particular philosophy leads to a breakdown of good order and discipline, among other negative impacts. That doesn't seem to bother you though.

That is the can of worms I'm referring to.

Take it you are just going to spew a bunch of accusations about me "pretending to do this military thing until it becomes inconvenient" (quite a disrespectful thing to accuse a stranger of) and then not even answer my questions about the very topic at hand? Is that your leadership style? You mentioned cowardice.. what is stopping you from answering my questions? I wonder if your answers reveal that we actually agree on this issue, and that bothers you...

 

[Pags]

New NAVADMIN covering policy WRT vax refusers: https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Portals/55/Messages/NAVADMIN/NAV2021/NAV21225.txt?ver=EfkG2psijI2X0IEKSId_5w==

Officers will be separated for cause, and enlisted will be ADSEP'd with either General or Honorable characterization. It doesn't say, but I assume the same characterization rules will apply for O's. So, assuming this is all they do (no NJP/CM), folks will be branded with a scarlet letter and kicked out. Will be tough for pilots in the civilian world for sure, but not sure how much other employers will care. Probably will depend on the business owner's political affiliation, unfortunately, with how political this all is.



Take it you are just going to spew a bunch of accusations about me "pretending to do this military thing until it becomes inconvenient" (quite a disrespectful thing to accuse a stranger of) and then not even answer my questions about the very topic at hand? Is that your leadership style? You mentioned cowardice.. what is stopping you from answering my questions? I wonder if your answers reveal that we actually agree on this issue, and that bothers you...

Looks like there's an exception for folks who are actively pursuing a religious exemption to allow that process to play out.

As a data point it looks like GSs may face termination if not covered by a medical or religious exemption. Have heard of even more stringent requirements from at least one large defense contractor.

Edited to remove comment about honorable discharge following clarification from taxi1.

 

[taxi1]

After much gnashing of teeth in Old Main (the HQ of our U) about how this all applies, the ruling has come down that since we get tons of money under federal contracts, everyone who works at the U main campus has to get vaccinated (unless waivered for some reason). If not vaxxed by the deadline, they are not permitted in bldgs conducting federal contract work, and can't charge projects receiving federal funding.

 

[taxi1]

If folks are given an honorable discharge how is that "branding?"

It'd be "General under Honorable Conditions" which is not the same as honorable. There's a loss of benefits (GI Bill).

 

[Pags]

It'd be "General under Honorable Conditions" which is not the same as honorable. There's a loss of benefits (GI Bill).

Ok, I had missed that distinction. Thanks.