We agree.. they probably shouldn't be serving. But why threaten them with a OTH or worse discharge if this mandate changes their calculus and makes them decide they no longer want to meet the requirements of service? What is the point of, for example, waiving the normal BUMED rule that folks don't have to get vaccinated within 180 of separation or retirement? This isn't just about maintaining good order and discipline. It is political and, frankly, immature. It is not leadership taking care of people or the force... it is leadership abusing its power to force the vax on as many people as possible, regardless of if it actually impacts readiness. I'm not arguing they cant do what they're doing.. I'm arguing they shouldn't. Have some compassion for your fellow man and, if he/she genuinely thinks the vaccine is so bad for him/her that they want to give up their career, then let them without penalty.
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Navy Reserve COVID Vaccinations by October
- Thread starter snake020
- Start date
Yep. It's vindictive and it's poor leadership.
I see these shenanigans creating a backlog at BCNR down the road as people who were forced out try to get their service records unscrewed.
Serious question- are you really hearing of anyone getting threatened with OTH or worse? If I had to guess, they’ll go for the simplest separations allowed which would hopefully be more in the vein of what I think you’re advocating for- Honorable or General under honorable conditions.
Please elaborate. The conventional wisdom that most religious exemptions will be denied doesn't imply bias - it does, however, imply that DoN may weigh the operational risks and consider religious accommodation to not be in the best interests of the service. Religious accommodation is 100% at the discretion of the service. This entire process, and how vaccine rejecters will be uniformly decided by a centralized adjudication authority, have gone through exhaustive legal review. I don't think there will be much room for legal challenge on this.
Stand by to receive a salvo of straw men.
Military people are inoculated against:
- Influenza (Flu Shot)
- Measles, Mumps, Rubella (MMR)
- Meningococcal
- Polio
- Tetanus-diphtheria
- Yellow Fever
- Typhoid
- Small Pox
- Anthrax
- Hepatitis A
- JE Vaccine (Japanese B Encephalitis)
Define risk- probability plus severity.
There is a lot of information floating around about side effects and it's hard to tell what's nonsensical disinformation and what's good information (well, some of the nonsense is super obvious but some of the bad information takes a lot of work to sort out). Aaaaaaand it doesn't help at all when our illustrious national leadership (under both R and D administrations) can't keep their stories and guidance straight for very long.
I think most of the stuff out there against the vaccines is bad info, but the whole topic is taboo and it feels like people get shouted down for asking the question.
Anyway, I'm a guy who did get the shots, I've been retired and out of the game for a few years, and I also got measles as a kid but have the MMR shot in my record (but forcing the covid shot on guys who've recovered from covid still seems dumb to me... what's the point?).
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
I grew up in a catholic household. All my friends from back home are catholic or Jewish because only 7% of the population where I'm from is Protestant. I've even been to mass in the last 6 months!
The catholic church's extortionist practices is a large influence of my turning to atheism.
Nevertheless, all the aforementioned catholics are vaccinated, along with ~70% population there. Anyone who is claiming it's against the teachings of the catholic faith to avoid the covid-19 vaccine magically 'found' their faith when Biden signed the order. In other words, they're trying to use religion as a loop hole.
There are like a fraction of a percentage of people who held deep seated beliefs against vaccines. They're on the fringe. We know who they are because it was in their records before the sealawyer underground found out how to try to get out of getting a shot.
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Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
This, IMO, is the biggest road block for skeptics.
I think that it's a natural reaction to ask questions about a new vaccine that hit the market in record time, but usually these questions are answered by some combination of 'it's safe and it works, trust us' or 'omg! you're an anti-vaxxer! SHAME!'
It would be great if the questions were answered with hard data. Like...
'I'm concerned about complications.'
'Well, the incidence of acute myocarditis is x%, and z% fully recover within (time). Compare this to Y% chance of long term complications, hospitalization or death from COVID-19 if you're not vaccinated.'
'I'm concerned about the long term efficacy.'
'While complete immunity wanes to 50% after about 6 months, it's still nearly 100% effective at preventing hospitalization or death, and boosters are rolling out similar to flu shots.'
Etc, etc.
We seem to be unable to have an honest, data driven conversation about it.
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You are painting a group of people with a broad brush. Just because you have experience with some Christians, doesn't mean that you have a good idea on what every person with that faith is experiencing, what type of person they are, and why they may be pursuing an exemption from the vaccine.
There are very valid reasons why someone with the Christian faith may want to purse an exemption from the vaccine. PM me if you want to be informed.
My CO and CO's boss have both had multiple all-hands calls where they explicitly said something to the effect of "what happens to you if you refuse the vax is out of our hands, but we're hearing that it will either be court martial or, if you're lucky, an ADSEP with OTH characterization." I assumed this was the message everyone was getting. It's more fear-mongering and threats, which is bullshit. One of my friends is going on terminal leave in November, but doesn't retire until February, and they are threatening him with this shit... this loss of his retirement even, if he doesn't get it. Tell me how he affects readiness? Tell me how this isn't just petty, horrible leadership? You think someone's service is not honorable because they have a different opinion than you on the risk/reward of the vaccine for their unique situation and want to make a different medical choice for themselves?
I got the vax, but I tire of the comparisons to other vaccines. This is different, and if you truly don't realize that, then you're head must be buried in the sand. It's the first MRNA vaccine ever. It's been politicized from the start. It was rushed to market in record time. You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to believe politicians had a heavy hand in getting it approved for non-scientific reasons. The phase 3 trials had no control group. Anyone who asks questions about it is shamed instead of given answers. Nobody knows the long-term side effects. Nobody knows how long vax immunity will last, or how effective boosters will be. Nobody knows the risk of boosters (short or long term on any large scale). People who know for a fact they had COVID are not given any waiver. Pfizer is legally immune to lawsuits, so all risk is taken by the vax taker. The science surrounding the vax is constantly changing as we learn more (and usually for the worse).
All these things make this very different. Again... have some compassion for people who want to make a different decision than you and I on what they want in their bodies.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
The FY 2022 DoD budget authorization specifically only allows an Honorable discharge and bans any other NJP or court martial proceeding for refusing the covid-19 vaccine. I guess it turns out the lawsuits incurred from the Anthrax snafoo wasn't worth the squeeze.
Then again, the bill isn't approved yet.
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Responses to these concerns are available. Whether or not the responses will satisfy folks depends on whether the concerns are actual or straw man excuses. Or put bluntly, some people do want some more education and once they've had a chance to get their concerns addressed from a trusted source they're willing to get the shot while others just don't want the shot for whatever reason and no amount of well reasoned discussion will convince them otherwise. I also think this has become a fashionable hill to fight over from all sides. But this shot was always going to end up on the military's list of required shots no matter who was in office because it falls in line with how the military has handled force health for hundreds of years.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
They're really not, though. Not with actual data, because the data is in its infancy.
I can find the risk of getting indigestion for taking viagra but good luck on finding the odds of complications from a covid-19 vaccine.