• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Navy Reserve COVID Vaccinations by October

SteveHolt!!!

Well-Known Member
pilot
They're about to get a rude awakening that they don't get to make the rules at an individual level.

Do you have any senior religious leaders (e.g. Cardinals, Bishops, etc.) saying that taking the covid19 vaccine is against the faith?
The exemption process is about personal belief and requires no higher religious authority, just that a chaplain endorses following an interview.

Here's a question, though. Can anyone give me a good reason why they will not just tell everyone that if they don't want the vax they can just repay any bonus money at the prorated amount and get out with an honorable discharge? Sure, it's bad for the Navy (retention issues, lost money training folks, etc.), but we waste way more money than that just giving it away in humanitarian relief to the f'ing Taliban and other countries who don't even like us. Seems like the humanitarian thing to do here, without question, is let people out if they feel that strongly about it, rather than forcing them to do an irreversible medical procedure that they don't want or face a possible OTH.
You want a good reason we shouldn’t hold people accountable for following legal orders? Seems like your stance is the special circumstance requiring justification. What is so special about this specific order that disagreement is grounds for leaving early? Once you’ve set that precedent, what other orders are you cool not following?
 

bubblehead

Registered Member
Contributor
The bottom line is that this particular vaccine is heavily politicized by several orders of magnitude and people will grasp at whatever they can.

Never seen anything like it in the last 20 to 30 years... This is almost akin to the draft dodging protesters during the Vietnam era.
 

ABMD

Bullets don't fly without Supply
The bottom line is that this particular vaccine is heavily politicized by several orders of magnitude and people will grasp at whatever they can.

Never seen anything like it in the last 20 to 30 years... This is almost akin to the draft dodging protesters during the Vietnam era.

This is true and unfortunate.
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
The exemption process is about personal belief and requires no higher religious authority, just that a chaplain endorses following an interview.


You want a good reason we shouldn’t hold people accountable for following legal orders? Seems like your stance is the special circumstance requiring justification. What is so special about this specific order that disagreement is grounds for leaving early? Once you’ve set that precedent, what other orders are you cool not following?
Do you really not see how this order is different? The mere fact that we're talking about it is proof it is different. Thousands of people might disobey it openly. It is a hugely political order, whether it should be or not (if you don't agree, just look at things like Texas Gov banning vax mandates vs Biden making this mandate). There are issues such as a fully authorized vax, which is the only thing folks can be ordered to take, not even being available in the marketplace. Of course this order is
different.

I feel the same about any medical procedure, to include other vaccines. If someone decides they don't want an irreversible medical procedure that we decide they must have to serve, we should have the compassion to let them say no without penalty.
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
Do you really not see how this order is different?
Before it was authorized, possibly. Now that it has formal approval, it's the same as all of the other vaccines we're required to take.

Getting a bunch of reservists together on a short order mobilization, in tight barracks, on a 15 hour flight to the middle east, then living in tight quarters 24/7...or deploying aboard the USS Greyhull...you are not going to settle for that cadre getting their natural immunity on your watch. It takes too long for the shot series too. If you haven't had the shots, you are not MOB-ready.

I'd be OK with some sort of antibody test, as a sop to the worried. It's in the rules.
 

ABMD

Bullets don't fly without Supply
Before it was authorized, possibly. Now that it has formal approval, it's the same as all of the other vaccines we're required to take.

Getting a bunch of reservists together on a short order mobilization, in tight barracks, on a 15 hour flight to the middle east, then living in tight quarters 24/7...or deploying aboard the USS Greyhull...you are not going to settle for that cadre getting their natural immunity on your watch. It takes too long for the shot series too. If you haven't had the shots, you are not MOB-ready.

I'd be OK with some sort of antibody test, as a sop to the worried. It's in the rules.

but the Navy isn't. See one of my previous posts.
 

bubblehead

Registered Member
Contributor
you can have a sincerely held religious belief and still not get accommodated, fwiw.
It makes sense. How can one have such strong religious beliefs about a vaccine while, at the same time, be in a job that has a high probability that they will take human life (e.g., Nuclear Command and Control, SEAL, any pilot who has dropped ordinance on target, etc.)?
 

Mos

Well-Known Member
None
The bottom line is that this particular vaccine is heavily politicized by several orders of magnitude and people will grasp at whatever they can.

Never seen anything like it in the last 20 to 30 years... This is almost akin to the draft dodging protesters during the Vietnam era.
Agree that many will claim religious exemption for what are likely secular reasons, but the politicization of this issue cuts both ways and commanders have a duty under the law to consider these claims without political and philosophical bias. In my view, some of what I've heard from senior leaders could be interpreted by servicemembers that they should expect a biased response to a request for religious accommodation and a degraded due process. I think leaders need to tread more carefully unless they're ok with lawsuits. I say this as someone who is vaccinated and has no personal concerns about the vaccine.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
It is a hugely political order
what are orders if not political?

also,
0ecd79ca-713e-46f7-a997-ca3097f04a42.jpeg
 

number9

Well-Known Member
Contributor
In my view, some of what I've heard from senior leaders could be interpreted by servicemembers that they should expect a biased response to a request for religious accommodation and a degraded due process.
If they were okay with previous vaccines but are suddenly uncomfortable with the COVID vaccine, do you think that a biased (or suspicious) response is appropriate?
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
be in a job that has a high probability that they will take human life
This has always come down to "we're the good guys, they're the bad guys, that makes it okay" and not just for us, that's a human nature and history of civilization thing. Everybody who is already serving has already rationalized it with their own morals a while ago (though yes, many people reexamine their moral decisions on an ongoing basis). I see how it's tangentially related to this discussion but I don't see how it's a big "but what about" question.

The conscientious objector concept is pretty specific but it's a separate question. Going down that rabbit hole a bit, to me it's a curious rationalization, i.e. if you're not okay with pulling the trigger and directly killing bad guys yourself then why aren't you doing your utmost to protest your own government that is sending your fellow citizens out, on your behalf, to kill the so-called bad guys? But there are a few more questions like that in government and politics...
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The bottom line is that this particular vaccine is heavily politicized by several orders of magnitude and people will grasp at whatever they can.

It may be, but it is still a lawful order.

Do you really not see how this order is different? The mere fact that we're talking about it is proof it is different. Thousands of people might disobey it openly. It is a hugely political order, whether it should be or not (if you don't agree, just look at things like Texas Gov banning vax mandates vs Biden making this mandate).

So some folks make a fuss about it, causing a controversy and then claim they shouldn't be mandated to take the vaccine because...there is a controversy that they caused in the first place. It's a novel strategy but seems to be gaining credence in some circles.

There are issues such as a fully authorized vax, which is the only thing folks can be ordered to take, not even being available in the marketplace. Of course this order is different.

There is a fully authorized vaccine, one that is available. So what's the issue?

I feel the same about any medical procedure, to include other vaccines. If someone decides they don't want an irreversible medical procedure that we decide they must have to serve, we should have the compassion to let them say no without penalty.

That's not how the military works, literally since the beginning of this country.

Funny how vaccines haven't been an issue now for close to 20 years, even with the myriad of vaccines we have to get while serving. The requirement to do so it pretty settled too, if vaccine gets fully approved and it is mandated you have to take it. Period. So what's the problem? If folks don't want to meet the requirements of service, they probably shouldn't be serving. Last time I checked you don't get to pick and choose lawful orders.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I'd be OK with some sort of antibody test, as a sop to the worried. It's in the rules.

and for those asking about antibodies testing because natural immunity is better than the vaccines..."The juice isn't worth the squeeze." from a senior medical O.

Why won't an antibody test be a good replacement for a vaccine? A couple of very good reasons:
  • Data - There is a lot of data on vaccines, data that is not only reviewed for approval but also tracked for safety and efficacy not only by the FDA but also numerous other first-world health agencies. That data and reviewing continues after approval, with continued tracking throughout the life of the vaccine. From what I've seen there is still a lot of uncertainty and nowhere near the amount of data for folks who have natural immunity from a previous infection.
  • Verification - Administering and then proving that one has a vaccine is not only easy but also internationally recognized and has been for decades (those yellow vaccination cards anyone?). I am not aware of a universally accepted antibody test or how one would verify one anyways.
  • Cost and Infrastructure - The COVID vaccines are bought and paid for while setting up a testing regime for antibody testing that is up to the same rigorous standards of vaccine approval and review would take a lot of time and money. And frankly it is a lot easier to prove a positive (vaccine) than a negative (antibodies).
  • Requirements - Not ours but places we deploy to. A lot of countries, and likely more in the future, require a COVID test to visit. Since our force is deployed worldwide those places are going to want to see proof of vaccination, period. Much like I needed a yellow fever vaccine or anti-malaria pills to visit to certain places you can add COVID vaccinations to that list too. You can bet a lot of countries are going to want to see that Carte Jaune before you step off the boat or plane when you get there.
So yeah, the juice definitely ain't worth the squeeze when it comes to testing for antibodies when we have vaccines.
 
Top