Left seat or right, big deck or small boy, FLIR up..or down?

[Alpha_Echo_606]

No, pic I pulled off the interweb.

See where the bottom of the dash slopes down to meet the center console? I still don't grow hair on the part of my shin that rubbed there.

I use to cram my fat A** in that area to run HUD, GPS, and ANVIS Light wiring thur there. You must be a big man.

 

[shaw5fe]

:icon_smil

 

[shaw5fe]

Yeah, it's not a bad side benefit, but I don't think it's the reason why. I bet French and Russian helos also have right seat HACs, and their rotors spin the other way.

I appreciate everyone’s response, please refer to the below quote regarding your suggestion that Russian made helicopter HACs sit on the right. This is for the Russian made Mi-2 which seats only one pilot, in which he is seated on the left as quoted below as (port side). Also please follow the link below and you will find an image of this aircraft and you can see that its rotor head rotates to the right or clockwise. Thereby as stated before the PIC sits on the right side of a CCW rotating helo because of the potential to loss tail rotor, and the left side of a CW rotating head for the same reason. Yes, this also helps to accommodate a left or right skid low attitude in light and I do mean very light helicopters. However, this has zero affect on medium to large sized helicopters.

Now for some reason every maintenance manual and NATOPS manual I have read still strictly refers to the right hand pilot seat as the PILOTS seat not COPILOT, meaning if you are flying HAC on the left hand side in the FLEET not in a learning environment then you are in violation of the NATOPS, it states that for a reason. This is to ensure crew safety as best as possible in the event of an uncontrolled RH yaw spin. This is the same reason why French and Russian HACs sit on the left.

“ACCOMMODATION: Normal accommodation for one pilot on flight deck (port side). Seats for up to eight passengers in air conditioned cabin, comprising back to back bench seats for three persons each, with two optional extra starboard side seats at rear, one behind the other. All passenger seats removable for carrying up to 700kg of internal freight. Access to cabin via forward-hinged doors on each side at front of cabin and aft on port side. Pilot's sliding window jettisonable in emergency. Ambulance version has accommodation for four stretchers and medical attendant, or two stretchers and two sitting casualties. Side by side seats and dual controls in pilot training version. Cabin heating, ventilation and air conditioning standard.” (K.Munson)

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.aviastar.org/foto/gallery/mil/mi-2_17.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/mi-2.php&usg=__J8Nl2ghT-4d02stZbuFYJNsq_Jk=&h=550&w=384&sz=49&hl=en&start=42&sig2=YhyA_rALUqohaofZqlZW2Q&um=1&tbnid=037acf_HoWBWqM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=93&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drussian%2Bhelo%2Bpilots%2Bsit%2Bon%2Bthe%2Bleft%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4DKUS_enUS250US250%26sa%3DN%26start%3D40%26um%3D1&ei=C4jRSeiBFpOFlAeKycGsBQ

 

[Pags]

Now for some reason every maintenance manual and NATOPS manual I have read still strictly refers to the right hand pilot seat as the PILOTS seat not COPILOT, meaning if you are flying HAC on the left hand side in the FLEET not in a learning environment then you are in violation of the NATOPS, it states that for a reason. This is to ensure crew safety as best as possible in the event of an uncontrolled RH yaw spin. This is the same reason why French and Russian HACs sit on the left.

So whatever would I have done tonight if I had lost TR drive while sitting left?

The naming of the seats is based on convention, like left and right. Sitting in one vice the other does not put your in violation of NATOPS. No where does it say that "the HAC shall sit in the right seat because it is called the pilot's seat." Me using the searchlight to illuminate the landing area or as an ID aid for other traffic in no way violates NATOPS because I'm not using it for searching.

 

[KBayDog]

Now for some reason every maintenance manual and NATOPS manual I have read still strictly refers to the right hand pilot seat as the PILOTS seat not COPILOT, meaning if you are flying HAC on the left hand side in the FLEET not in a learning environment then you are in violation of the NATOPS, it states that for a reason. This is to ensure crew safety as best as possible in the event of an uncontrolled RH yaw spin. This is the same reason why French and Russian HACs sit on the left.

The Phrog has a 'pilot' and 'copilot' position in the cockpit, yet the odds of us losing tail rotor authority are, well, pretty low. Since an uncontrolled RH yaw spin is not something we worry too much about (read: AT ALL) why do we have designated pilot and copilot positions?

(BTW, there is no violation of NATOPS if/when the HAC sits left seat, right seat, front seat, back seat, etc. The Aircraft Commander is a flight leadership designation - not a seat position within the cockpit.)

 

[ghost]

Now for some reason every maintenance manual and NATOPS manual I have read still strictly refers to the right hand pilot seat as the PILOTS seat not COPILOT, meaning if you are flying HAC on the left hand side in the FLEET not in a learning environment then you are in violation of the NATOPS, it states that for a reason. This is to ensure crew safety as best as possible in the event of an uncontrolled RH yaw spin. This is the same reason why French and Russian HACs sit on the left.

Pilot seat is not equal to HAC seat. I am sure that I know my NATOPS better than you. No where is there a requirement that a HAC sit in the right seat. Such a requirement does not make sense. There are valid training requirements for being able to switch seats. If you think training stops when you get to the fleet you are sadly mistaken. Almost every flight is a training flight in one way or another.

In the 60B, the person sitting in the right seat is referred to as the pilot no matter who is the HAC. The person in the left seat is called the ATO. Not all the gouge that goes around the maintenance shop about what pilots do is correct.

 

[busdriver]

Of course the upside down mount causes some clearance issues when doing dirt landings, not to mention the recent mishap where it came off on a hard landing.

Just be glad it's up on that duck bill mount, versus where it is on the Pavehawk.

 

[shaw5fe]

So whatever would I have done tonight if I had lost TR drive while sitting left?

The naming of the seats is based on convention, like left and right. Sitting in one vice the other does not put your in violation of NATOPS. No where does it say that "the HAC shall sit in the right seat because it is called the pilot's seat." Me using the searchlight to illuminate the landing area or as an ID aid for other traffic in no way violates NATOPS because I'm not using it for searching.

Come on, every pilot has got to have some sort of understanding for human factors. If you had been sitting on the right, at least you would have a little bit more situational awareness (SA) as to the helicopters actual position. That is what this whole concept is based on. Otherwise why in the world do the Russians not sit on the right as well? Second note: What is the military supposed to say when they have to explain to civilians who know nothing about aviation, that when their son or daughter died in a crash the pilot in charge was actually sitting in the copilots’ seat vises the engineered into the system pilot’s seat? Therefore it makes no sense what so ever why you would want to sit in the other seat. Except for in the training environment, this includes fleet training. If an accident did occur during a training mission then it would be documented as such.

I will retract the statement I made as to the NATOPS, but I stand by my opinion of the original topic.

Always remember to ask your self this question. What if? If the answer to this has a negative outcome then you might want to go with the decision to stick with what has been engineered into the system for your and your crews’ safety.

It is as simple as Deliberate ORM. Step 4 Implement controls: There three separate ways to do this and they are listed in hierarchyform. As referenced in the OPNAVINST 3500.39B Enclosure (1) page 2.

(1) Engineering Controls – controls that use engineering methods to reduce risks by design, material selection or substitution when technically or economically feasible.

(2) Administrative Controls- Controls that reduce risks through specific administrative actions, such as:

(a) Providing suitable warnings, markings, placards, signs, and notices.

(b) Establishing written policies, programs instructions and standard operating procedures (SOP).

(c) Training personnel to recognize hazards and take appropriate precautionary measures.

(3) Personal Protective Equipment- Serves as a barrier between personnel and a hazard. It should be used when other controls do not reduce the hazard to an acceptable level.

Here we are looking at an engineering and administrative control measure which was engineered into your aircrafts to give the best solution to the what if question, and yes this holds true for the russian CW rotating heads as well hince they sit on the left. The end!

Please have a good day and heed what I have said for it may hold the key to your fate one day.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Does that lecturing tone make you many friends around the shop? Because it's going to make you very popular in the TRACOM and when you hit the Fleet.

Seriously - your contributions are welcome and I'm sure you know some things about helos - but knock off the patronizing attitude. There are alot of very experienced Navy and Marine helo pilots on this forum and they know what they're talking about. Lecturing them to "take heed of what I say" is a pretty shitty attitude.

 

[squorch2]

From the 60S NATOPS, Chapter 19 ("Crew Resource Management") - and this is Superhawk, so it's the same for the vast majority of Navy helicopters:

Helicopter Aircraft Commander (HAC)/Pilot In Command (PIC) — The cockpit crewmember designated as pilot in command of the aircraft. The HAC/PIC may occupy either cockpit seat.

Please tell me how to better fly my aircraft after you have wings. And a cruise. And are an ANI or NI. Don't just pull opinions from your ass.

 

[Pags]

Come on, every pilot has got to have some sort of understanding for human factors.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of human factors. The ASO course I went to helped that along as has my almost 1000hrs. I highly recommend that you drop your tone of holier than thou. I don't care how long you fixed em for, you haven't flown em.

The military doesn't have to say anything to civilians regarding what happened in a crash except "my condolences for your loss". Mishap reports aren't released to parents or any other civilians. And in the many mishap reports I've read, never has one of them ever mentioned the seat the HAC was in.

Go back to your books and good luck in school. Please make sure you lecture your flight instructors this thoroughly. Your understanding of how the a/c works will definetely get you ahead.

 

[squorch2]

One last thing - not to pile on, but more for other junior guys out there - you are ALWAYS in a learning environment, regardless of whether or not your mission is purely training. If you're not in a learning environment, you're just a sandbag in the other seat.

Believe it.

 

[Pags]

One last thing - not to pile on, but more for other junior guys out there - you are ALWAYS in a learning environment, regardless of whether or not your mission is purely training. If you're not in a learning environment, you're just a sandbag in the other seat.

Believe it.

Very true. And if you think the learning stops when you get that last qual (no such thing. There's always another qual), you're in for a surprise.

 

[phrogpilot73]

...worthless, patronizing words...

I have over 1500 hours as a PILOT. 400 Goggle Hours. 350 Combat Hours.

Qualified as a HAC, Section Lead, Division Lead, Assault Flight Lead, TERFI, NSI, and WTI.

I'm an Aviation Safety Officer, Operational Risk Management Instructor, and have experience as an Engineer on the CH-53K program.

DO NOT TELL ME THAT YOU "WEALTH" OF EXPERIENCE REPLACES MINE. YOUR TIME ON THE WEBSITE WILL BE SHORT - AND WITH YOUR ATTITUDE, SO WILL YOUR TIME IN FLIGHT SCHOOL.

It's time for you to step back, STFU - and listen for once. Rather than pontificating about how much you know, and how little we know. Surprisingly, we may actually know more than you at times.

 

[exhelodrvr]

Come on, every pilot has got to have some sort of understanding for human factors. If you had been sitting on the right, at least you would have a little bit more situational awareness (SA) as to the helicopters actual position. That is what this whole concept is based on. Otherwise why in the world do the Russians not sit on the right as well? Second note: What is the military supposed to say when they have to explain to civilians who know nothing about aviation, that when their son or daughter died in a crash the pilot in charge was actually sitting in the copilots’ seat vises the engineered into the system pilot’s seat? Therefore it makes no sense what so ever why you would want to sit in the other seat. Except for in the training environment, this includes fleet training. If an accident did occur during a training mission then it would be documented as such.

I will retract the statement I made as to the NATOPS, but I stand by my opinion of the original topic.

Always remember to ask your self this question. What if? If the answer to this has a negative outcome then you might want to go with the decision to stick with what has been engineered into the system for your and your crews’ safety.

It is as simple as Deliberate ORM. Step 4 Implement controls: There three separate ways to do this and they are listed in hierarchyform. As referenced in the OPNAVINST 3500.39B Enclosure (1) page 2.

(1) Engineering Controls – controls that use engineering methods to reduce risks by design, material selection or substitution when technically or economically feasible.

(2) Administrative Controls- Controls that reduce risks through specific administrative actions, such as:

(a) Providing suitable warnings, markings, placards, signs, and notices.

(b) Establishing written policies, programs instructions and standard operating procedures (SOP).

(c) Training personnel to recognize hazards and take appropriate precautionary measures.

(3) Personal Protective Equipment- Serves as a barrier between personnel and a hazard. It should be used when other controls do not reduce the hazard to an acceptable level.

Here we are looking at an engineering and administrative control measure which was engineered into your aircrafts to give the best solution to the what if question, and yes this holds true for the russian CW rotating heads as well hince they sit on the left. The end!

Please have a good day and heed what I have said for it may hold the key to your fate one day.

Navy/USMC helos typically have virtually the same controls/instrumentation on each seat, so there isn't an advantage there as there would be in a lot of helos. In squadrons I was in, if a lot of landings were going to be done, the junior pilot would typically be in the right seat, day time landings on larger ships were virtually always done flying up the port side, and then sliding to the right, and for landings at night the obstructions were on the right. So the less experienced would be given the best of the two sight pictures.

Small deck landings were made approaching at an angle on the starboard side as often as possible, because the H-3 cargo door was on the right and so the crewman had a much better view from that side. That meant that the obstructions were on the right, so (again) the less experienced pilot would typically get the right seat if both pilots were going to be doing the landings.

And the left seat had better access to the TACNAV system (don't know what they call the equivalent on the H-60s - Tactical Navigation, used to run the ASW and SAR search patterns, backup navigation to the charts on cross countries, etc.). So the individual who would be doing the majority of the tactical work would fly in the left seat. Sometimes that would be the HAC, sometimes the co-pilot.

So there are several specific reasons why the HAC would not be in the right seat.

Don't let book learning interfere with learning from those who have a lot of practical experience.