Honduran Democracy -- Central American style ...

[zab1001]

South America is one of the regions I am wayyyyy less than informed about. Trying to untangle the corruption, feuding, and coup on top of junta on top of dictatorships makes my head hurt. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's neglected our own backyard while trying to get knowledges about the sandbox.

Calling it "our own backyard" is one of the key errors made in analyzing the area. I had the same attitude prior to serving down there, and while I tempered that after my tour, further (formal) study highlighted how f-ed up that perception is. These are hemispheric neighbors, not client states. Hell, throw out any "save the world" idea and just look at the sustainable economic potential of engagement focused on partnerships vice hegemony. We're talking about a region with a notorious history of subjugation. Look up "caudillo" and "caudillismo." While an emphasis on transparency and accountability HAS improved things (in varying degress depending on specific nation), economically motivated colonization driven by states and the Church has led to a legacy system still mired in class-orientated exploitation.

If you're serious about learning something:

"Modern Latin America," Skidmore and Smith: Quintessential and concise modern history of the region. Easy read, recognized as authoritative and impartial.

"Born in Blood and Fire: A Concise History of Latin America," John Charles Chasteen: Blatantly leftist and poorly edited, but still insightful, particularly in regard to race relations (i.e. african influences in the region).

"The Cosmic Race aka La Raza Cosmica," Jose Vasconcelos: Widely (and incorrectly) viewed as a diatribe centered on racial superiority, this is a great piece on the potential inherent in societies comprised of multiple cultures and races.

"Ambivalent Conquests: Maya and Spaniard in Yucatan, 1517-1570," Inga Clendinnen: Dry but interesting recount of the Church and its attempt to eradicate native culture and power structures.

"Latin America's Political Economy of the Possible: Beyond Revolutionaries and Free-Marketeers," Javier Santiso: Quick read that focuses on the development of global economies in relation to international politics. Goes beyond the usual "neo-liberalism is evil and the root of all problems in the region."

"Forgotten Continent: The Battle for Latin America's Soul," Michael Reid: My top pick. The hows and whys of the gradual development of democracy in the region, with particular emphasis on the reasons behind populism's endurance.

 

[scoolbubba]

Thanks for the sources Zab, there wasn't any offense meant but I guess I could see how it'd come across as a typically arrogant American attitude.

"Small nations, when treated as equals, become the firmest of allies"
-Alas Babylon

 

[Flash]

It is curious that we (as a nation I suppose) were so quick to condemn a Honduran Supreme court sanctioned coup-type action (no deaths yet) but yet were so very slow to condemn the crackdown on protest in Iran (death toll rising).
I realize that South and Central American politics are corrupt on a good day but at first read it seems as though the Honduran military might have done this one right. I guess the real test is who they put in power in the interim and how interim it is.

As idiotic as the Honduran President is/was I think in the longer term the military takeover will do more harm than good. It gives him instant sympathy/credibility where he was rapidly losing it and may even see him possibly return to power strengthened and with fewer enemies and more allies. Better to continue to let him shoot himself in the foot than make him the latest martyr/cause célèbre for leftists the world over.

 

[zab1001]

Thanks for the sources Zab, there wasn't any offense meant but I guess I could see how it'd come across as a typically arrogant American attitude.

"Small nations, when treated as equals, become the firmest of allies"
-Alas Babylon

No no no, no offense taken at all.

 

[zab1001]

As idiotic as the Honduran President is/was I think in the longer term the military takeover will do more harm than good. It gives him instant sympathy/credibility where he was rapidly losing it and may even see him possibly return to power strengthened and with fewer enemies and more allies. Better to continue to let him shoot himself in the foot than make him the latest martyr/cause célèbre for leftists the world over.

Definite shades of Hugo a la 2002.

 

[red_ryder]

On the other hand, this was direct to the point and expedient, for a change.

I, for one, find it refreshing that justice be dispensed so quickly without being mired in simpering red tape.

 

[skidkid]

Well you can see how this is going to go, Venezuela threatening military action and the US calling the action unlawful. I think president Zelaya will have a long and unlimited career in public office ala Chavez. I wouldnt want to be a Honduran supreme court justice about now.

 

[Bevo16]

As idiotic as the Honduran President is/was I think in the longer term the military takeover will do more harm than good. It gives him instant sympathy/credibility where he was rapidly losing it and may even see him possibly return to power strengthened and with fewer enemies and more allies. Better to continue to let him shoot himself in the foot than make him the latest martyr/cause célèbre for leftists the world over.

Well, it seems like the "military takeover" lasted less than a day and power was returned to the Honduran congress. Given that there was no violence and the military had no desire to keep power, it is a stretch to call this a coup. It boils down to the military enforcing the supreme court decision and making sure the term limits were kept in effect.

Our president's response:

 

[Clux4]

Well, it seems like the "military takeover" lasted less than a day and power was returned to the Honduran congress. Given that there was no violence and the military had no desire to keep power, it is a stretch to call this a coup. It boils down to the military enforcing the supreme court decision and making sure the term limits were kept in effect.

Actually not. There about three types of coup's. This type is classified as Guardian coup d’état. Wiki should have something on it.

 

[Fog]

Well, it seems like the "military takeover" lasted less than a day and power was returned to the Honduran congress. Given that there was no violence and the military had no desire to keep power, it is a stretch to call this a coup. It boils down to the military enforcing the supreme court decision and making sure the term limits were kept in effect.

Our president's response:

I agree w/ Bevo. Zelaya played the Chavez "Make me Presidente for Life" card, and the Honduran Supreme Court ruled that he was exceeding his constitutional authority. So when Zelaya fired the Army Chief of Staff, the Army stepped in & gave him a free flight to Costa Rica to restore constitutional rule. Looks like the system worked, to me.

 

[Bevo16]

Actually not. There about three types of coup's. This type is classified as Guardian coup d?état. Wiki should have something on it.

Well, it depends on what hair you want to split.

If you look at the definition (using your ultra high standard of Wikipedia):

Typically, a coup d?état uses the extant government?s power to assume political control of the country.

If you want to focus on who in the military performed the action, then the "Guardian" tag applies. If you look at the underlined portion of the definition and apply that to the case at hand, then you will note that the military did NOT assume political control over the country. They assumed positive control of the president, and peacefully sent him on his way.

No "political control" = no coup.

Nice try though.

 

[SkywardET]

Looks like based on what y'all are saying the Honduran military was protecting the country from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

 

[NUFO06]

I cant figure out why Obama is defending this wannabe President for life. Could you imagine if this league of the americas group meeting in washington voted to have the US or some joint group intervene with troops. I dont know all the facts, but so far it seems like we are on the wrong side of this thing.
-The military is not in power and the new President is ony going to be President untill the elections next year.

 

[A4sForever]

Looks like based on what y'all are saying the Honduran military was protecting the country from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

I wish I lived in Honduras.

 

[Flash]

To lump President Obama in with idiots like Ortega and Chavez is way too simplistic, and very lazy too, along with claiming that we support the ousted president. A coup is a coup, no matter which way you look at it, and nowadays we can't support that kind of action pretty much no matter where it happens. It doesn't matter if power has been handed to the Congress down there, kicking the president out of the country in the middle of the night in his pj's ain't legal not matter how you paper it over. While the former president of Honduras is an idiot his opponents had several other options to deal with the situation and we worked behind the scenes to try and ensure that a coup did not happen. And it is not like he is the only one in the region trying to stay in power, Chavez is too but so is Uribe (who also condemed the coup).

Again, this hurts us much more than helps us in the long term. It gives ammunition to morons like Chavez, Ortega, Morales and their supporters who gain more power, credibility and support in the region and around the world. Our close ties to Honduras, and in particular the military, ensures that many people in the region will think we were behind it. While some of that can't be helped it is actions like these that give us less credibility and leverage in dealing with the region. If President Zelaya is able to return to power he might be able to clean house in the military and congress, leaving him with fewer opponents and obstacles to his continuing his rule. Guess who is screwed then. Ever thought of it that way?

Welcome to the 21st century gentlemen.