F-35B/C Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter)

[Shpion1]

We met with some o-5/6's today from the Pentagon. We were informed that yes, costs have increased, but not nearly to the scale that WSJ is reporting. It's readily apparent that JSF is the future, period. The marines aren't planning to buy C's right now. However, DCA is onboard with the idea of TAI...we just have to prove to the Navy (again) that VSTOL can operate effectively off the CVN. I think it has more to do with convincing Congress big Navy needs more CVNs. If they convince USMC that we HAVE to buy C's to operate from the carrier, then they get more budget for boats. Knowing what I know now, the Navy needs lots more boats...so this isn't a terrible idea.

I read the testimonies earlier today and I'd say the costs are pretty much that high. CAPE director Mrs Fox quoted a price ranging between 80-95 million. Pretty much doubled. GAO said about 113 million is their take. Interesting Q&A sessions, I can't access it from home but this link may help.

http://armed-services.senate.gov/e_witnesslist.cfm?id=4383#witness

The numbers acquired already dropped some time ago by about 400 to around 2443. Fox quoted previous air programs where the costs escalated and the numbers acquired went down, saying the programs were successfull. She got called on that I think by Levin that she would consider such an occurence a success. She did a little backtracking, similar to that being currently done by Ash Carter (Acquisition head) regarding his earlier statement that Lockheed underbid the contract to win it then costs are now skyrocketing.

It seems like DOD "seems" to have a handle on the the issues and they have a plan to combat them. Costs will definitely go up. but theres no way that the JSF will become the "affordable" little "sister" to the High End F-22, a fighter with a flyaway cost of around 150 mil as of 09.

 

[Shpion1]

I got sent this link today. Pretty cool system that I didn't know about, and I was just about to close it out when it showed the dangers of entering a turning fight with "high off-boresight" missiles. Is it just me, or does Northrup make this plane look too much like cheating in BFM? Hell, if it's as easy in this plane as they make it seem, even a prop guy like me could do it.

http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/f35targeting/assets/eodasvideo.html

Utopic in my belief. Old threats (ZSU 23-4?) wheres the double digit SAMS? What will it do then?

And the Flanker being hit with the HOBS missile? WHy wouldn't he use an archer or adder way before he got that close? it's a sales job, always have to look at the source of the info.

PS. DAS is pretty cool though, another tool in the quiver.

 

[usmarinemike]

If anybody cares, the Wall Street Journal article was on Early Bird this morning along with some others that all say the same thing: This bitch got expensive and still isn't ready. Still though, I'd do an IA between advanced and FRS and then fly 9 hours a month for 2 or 3 years to transition into it. Hell....It's more than I fly now.

 

[VetteMuscle427]

Utopic in my belief. Old threats (ZSU 23-4?) wheres the double digit SAMS? What will it do then?

And the Flanker being hit with the HOBS missile? WHy wouldn't he use an archer or adder way before he got that close? it's a sales job, always have to look at the source of the info.

1. They'll have more than the shown division going against anything double digit. We don't fight alone.

2. If you can engage BVR, all the time, then why not stick w/ Super Slows? What happens when we aren't able to solve PID and need to go for a VID?

 

[Shpion1]

1. They'll have more than the shown division going against anything double digit. We don't fight alone.

2. If you can engage BVR, all the time, then why not stick w/ Super Slows? What happens when we aren't able to solve PID and need to go for a VID?

Agree with both your points, I was relating it to the video. There were plenty of times in previous engagements where even with PID, ROE dictated a visual. Then you're dancing. JSF has a lot of cool systems, most definitely. Just hopefully they'll get them figured out, tested and in production without any further delays. Vis a vis the recent Hornet redstripe, the Marine Corps dire need for Harrier replacement, cannot afford further delays in this program.

 

[SynixMan]

Cool video about the History of the F-35.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2010/03/video-history-of-the-f-35-by-s.html

 

[Scruff]

First full vertical landing: http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2010-03/f-35-completes-first-success-fully-vertical-landing

(Sorry if its a repost)

 

[usmarinemike]

So...5 briefs tomorrow at North Whiting on the JSF, one of which everybody in primary must attend. Wondering if it's just a canned capes and lims brief or if they're going to give us something semi-useful on what it'll mean to select jets in the next few years (particularly in the rhino-less Marine Corps). Anybody know?

 

[Treetop Flyer]

So...5 briefs tomorrow at North Whiting on the JSF, one of which everybody in primary must attend. Wondering if it's just a canned capes and lims brief or if they're going to give us something semi-useful on what it'll mean to select jets in the next few years (particularly in the rhino-less Marine Corps). Anybody know?

I have major doubts that the F-35B will reach IOC in Dec 2012 like they they say it will, but I have to imagine that people in primary now would have some chance of selecting F-35's. Figure a year at the minimum for advanced and maybe the same for the FRS and you are well into 2012 or 2013. That's obviously my wild speculation.

 

[HAWK22]

I bet what you will see first are current Hornet/Harrier/Prowler guys make the transition to fill up the first JSF squadrons, then eventually start plugging in studs right out of jet advanced. who knows when that will happen based on JSF planners constantly sliding to the right in terms of IOC. But i would guess 2+ years after the first legit squadrons stand up for the brand new wingees to start showing up.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

I bet what you will see first are current Hornet/Harrier/Prowler guys make the transition to fill up the first JSF squadrons, then eventually start plugging in studs right out of jet advanced. who knows when that will happen based on JSF planners constantly sliding to the right in terms of IOC. But i would guess 2+ years after the first legit squadrons stand up for the brand new wingees to start showing up.

I don't think they will fill the first squadrons entirely with experienced guys. They have to bring in new guys as well who will become the experienced senior captains and majors later on. If they only bring in experience guys then they will only have experienced majors and up for later on. I'm sure there are a lot of people on here with experience of how the Navy and Marines start up a new platform.

 

[jarhead]

I...words... But i would guess 2+ years after the first legit squadrons stand up for the brand new wingees to start showing up.

According to the FY '10 Marine Corps AVPlan, VMFAT-501 is suppose to produce 7 Cones (CAT 1's) in FY '13.

SF

 

[phrogdriver]

I don't think they will fill the first squadrons entirely with experienced guys. They have to bring in new guys as well who will become the experienced senior captains and majors later on. If they only bring in experience guys then they will only have experienced majors and up for later on. I'm sure there are a lot of people on here with experience of how the Navy and Marines start up a new platform.

The first FLEET squadron will undoubtedly be made up of a representative, but still slightly top-heavy bunch of pilots. You will have a group of first lieutenants and captains out of flight school there for sure. Your experienced captains will be more senior than normal and you will have more majors than usual too. The problem is that your FRS cadre and operational test pilots will have been sitting around awhile and will need somewhere to go. The Marine Corps will not want them to leave the program altogether, because they're still too valuable as IPs, but there won't be enough fleet billets for all of them in a standard, grade-shaped community. The longer the IOCs are delayed, the greater this problem becomes.

 

[HAWK22]

I didn't mean to imply the "seasoned transitions" would be guys of all the same experience year wise. They will definitely space it out. But like stated above, the majority will be senior captains and majors. I think it will be more like how politicians stagger their terms so that term conclusions are not all at once. Then eventually as new studs come out of advanced, they will start filling the ranks appropriately. How did the Osprey community do it? More or less similar set of circumstances with new technology and new staffing issues to solve.

 

[Fog]

FWIW: Today even SecDef Robert Gates has acknowledged publicly that the Pentagon is considering a 2nd multi-year contract buy of Super Hornets both to replenish the Navy's "fighter shortfall" as well as to plug the gap in the anticipated late delivery of F-35Cs to the Navy. A buy of 124 to 150 a/c is being considered, and that number will include some Growlers in addition to the EF-18G numbers already contracted. I found this on Yahoo News under Boeing in the "Markets" section. Would post the article, but I always violate TOS & copyrights when I try - this is an age-related issue specific to techno-retards like myself.