Cost for getting ME rating or CFI/II rating in JAX with GI Bill

[Cobra Commander]

Mesa all but guarantees it's students a job for a fee, when they state that they hire 98% of the programs graduates. May people call this buying a job. Personally, it doesn't bother me, it's their money. I had to pay for my rating, so in essence I paid for my job and endured low pay at the hands of a flight school owner and in essence I helped to bring down the industry, I guess. However, I don't think I learned much do laps in the pattern in a 152 with a student that prepared me for commuter flying.

98% is really a misleading figure. I can't speak for the farmington operation because my experience is with the ASU program but here it goes. I don't think the hire rate is actually that high. They had about 6 or seven guys interview at the end of the year and one didn;t make it. And quite a few of those guys were instructors from other schools like UND that teach for a year. Thats not 98%. But thats really not my point.

The point is that most people wash out before they get a chance to interview which helps with their placement rate. My class started out with about 70 people, and as of right now there are only a handful of "serious" students.

The work rules at Mesa are why I'm jumping ship. My parents didn't know anything about the aviation industry and neither did I, so initially it seemed like a great deal, since the military seemed impossible. But I started checking things out online and discovered the truth. I still think the training is good, but it is expensive and the degree is worthless so I'm really glad I applied for an air contract (fingers crossed).


On the bright side for guys at Mesa, their contract gets renegotiated next year so they should be able to get some things fixed without Freedom hanging over their heads.

MAPD at ASU isn't PFT, but it might as well be since everyone thinks it is.

 

[Harrier Dude]

There you go....taking the easy and cheap way out......

Harrier Dude - if airlines are your post Marine goal, a C-12 farewell tour would be an excellent idea. The more total time the better off you are. Being a tactical jet guy, the lack of ME time won't hurt you too much but if you can bag a bunch flying the C-12 for 2 or 3 years it will help. Plus airlines look a currency. For example, SWA wants 200 hours of flying in the last 36 months. My last tour before retirement was on a staff. There were a bunch of pilots there who were having problems getting airline jobs (1998 when hiring was huge) because they had been out of the cockpit for too long.

Edit: Back in my day, the Navy C-12 guys got trained at a civilian facility in Witchita, KS. They came away with their types and ATPs. I wonder if that still happens and if the Marines do the same too?

I'll have to wait and see on the C-12s. Right now my staff job has me scheduling them all the time, so I talk to them frequently. It'll all depend on what happens at next years promotion board. I'm headed to my department head tour, so I'll know more about my future career/lack thereof in a year and a half or so. The outcome of the board will likely determine how great the chances are of getting a C-12/35 gig. Ironiclly, if I get promoted, it hurts my chances of flying. The ulimate down-side is if I get selected, but don't get command (also most likely scenario), I'll have a beltway bulseye on my forehead for my last 3 years. That is unless I want to go past 20, which I don't.

As far as C-12 training goes (C-35 as well), it's still civilian training and you'll get an ATP if you want it as well. Same for the Marines.

I still don't understand why there is so much angst with the PFT guys. Why does anybody care where somebody got their training or whether they had to pay for it? Is it a quality assurance thing, or just plain Playa Hatin'?

Thanks a BUNCH for the gouge. I still have a few years (6) left in me, so I'll be keeping in touch with this forum a lot.

 

[A4sForever]

....if airlines are your post (*military*) , a C-12 farewell tour would be an excellent idea. The more total time the better off you are. Being a tactical jet guy, the lack of ME time won't hurt you too much but if you can bag a bunch flying the C-12 for 2 or 3 years it will help. Plus airlines look a currency. ....

The Gospel according to Hal Pilot .... and he's right on, by the way.

Preach it, and Hallelujah, Bruddah .....

 

[HAL Pilot]

I still don't understand why there is so much angst with the PFT guys. Why does anybody care where somebody got their training or whether they had to pay for it? Is it a quality assurance thing, or just plain Playa Hatin'?

It's a multitude of reasons. Here are some off the top of my head.

- Quality assurance: Yup. If a PFT places washes people out, they will quickly run out of people willing to pay. Plus it allows really low time guys into places they don't have the experience to be. It's like making a first tour P-3 pilot straight out of the Rag a 2P instead of a No P.

- It's kind of like affirmative action. Many pilots with a lot more experience and qualifications get passed over for the job because they aren't green (the color of money....)

- Many see it as a short cut and those that do it "haven't paid their dues". (I personally don't care about this one).

- Many think it "lowers the bar". The company is required by the FAA to train its pilots. It's a cost of doing business. Companies that PFT realize that they can get pilots to pay their costs of doing business. This manifest itself into other areas - pay and quality of life. Pilots that are willing to PFT are typically willing to accept lower pay and harsher work rules. Those of us that want to raise our pay and QOL have a harder time because we get undercut.

- Professionalism: goes with the lowering the bar bullet above. Professionals are paid for their work. They don't pay the employer for the job.

I am 95% against the whole PFT thing. I was trying to bust into this industry in 1999 / 2000 when PFT at the regionals was still pretty common. Instead of flying a regional jet, I did Grand Canyon tours flying a Twin Otter to avoid the whole PFT thing. It didn't hurt me getting to Hawaiian but it has hurt me since my furlough. While turboprop time used to be fine, with all the pilot on furlough jet time is a biggie now. I have only a couple of hundred hours of jet (pilot) time (most airlines don't give a crap about FE time).

There is some of the "Playa Hatin" thing going on too. It's a "haves" versus "have nots" thing. Those that "have not" say the the "haves" got their rich parents to buy them a head start. I personally know a few "haves" that came from poor families and did it on their own. Normally prior enlisted guys.

I would have no problem with someone like Master Bates who is an experienced Navy helo pilot going somewhere like Gulfstream Airlines and paying for some right seat time to enhance his airline resume. In my opinion he is a proven aircraft commander, he has the experience to be an airline pilot, and he has more than "paid his dues". In his case, I see it as a "continuing education" type deal. But, unfortunately, most don't believe in any exceptions to the whole PFT thing.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Ironiclly, if I get promoted, it hurts my chances of flying. The ulimate down-side is if I get selected, but don't get command (also most likely scenario), I'll have a beltway bulseye on my forehead for my last 3 years. That is unless I want to go past 20, which I don't.

Do everything possible to avoid the beltway and make that last tour a flying one. Monitor...booze...kneepads....maybe volunteer for that 1 year crappy IA or unaccompanied tour in year 18 if they will give you a C-12 or the training command for years 19 & 20....

Isn't there some job at the Wing (MAG?) level that everyone hates but gives you access to a cockpit? Volunteer for that. Might make for a miserable last few years but it won't be any worst than a staff or DC job.....

I actually know one guy who turned down O5 so he could fly the training command for his last 2 years. He was a prior E and already at 18 years so they had to keep him to retirement. He got interviews at all the majors (1998 timeframe), got hired quickly and avoided all this furlough crap guys hired less than a year after him are experiencing.

In the airline game, seniority is everything. The better your resume the earlier you get interviewed and hired.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Do everything possible to avoid the beltway and make that last tour a flying one. Monitor...booze...kneepads....maybe volunteer for that 1 year crappy IA or unaccompanied tour in year 18 if they will give you a C-12 or the training command for years 19 & 20....

Isn't there some job at the Wing (MAG?) level that everyone hates but gives you access to a cockpit? Volunteer for that. Might make for a miserable last few years but it won't be any worst than a staff or DC job.....

I actually know one guy who turned down O5 so he could fly the training command for his last 2 years. He was a prior E and already at 18 years so they had to keep him to retirement. He got interviews at all the majors (1998 timeframe), got hired quickly and avoided all this furlough crap guys hired less than a year after him are experiencing.

In the airline game, seniority is everything. The better your resume the earlier you get interviewed and hired.

I have every intention of avoiding the beltway for many, many reasons. Currency is up there, but red-a$$ avoidance is probably #1. I have ZERO desire to drive 1 1/2 hours from a $400,000 1500 square foot house to a job I hate. I'm all for being a team player, but I draw the line at DC.

Our MAW jobs may be DIFOP, but since they're in Miramar and the Harriers are in Yuma (or God forbid the Cherry Point option) I'd never actually fly. Maybe C-12's or C-35s, but most likely it would be a post-orders drug deal. I'd have no gauruntees prior to checking in. Lots of competing mafias to break through. I have another backup plan, but I'll have to PM you on it later.

Great gouge!

 

[plc67]

Well, let me throw in my two cents. I was a rotary wing pilot in the Corps with a couple of hundred hours of fixed wing time when I got booted, I mean left, the Marines. Couldn't get a helo job, the post Viet Nam wind down had flooded the market with highly qualified pilots, same for the fixed wing side of the house. So I got my CFI and built C-150 heavy time at 80 to 100 hours a month. I wasn't married so the sub McDonald's wages I made didn't upset my significant other(the wives I have known constantly nag you about wanting a place to live and food.) I used the reserves to supplement my income and lived pretty well. I got a multi engine rating, got on on commuter, as regionals were called then and I was off. For helo pilots the bad news is that rotorary wing time does not help and can even hurt; I call it the Luigi syndrome, they don't care how may bridges you built but suck one etc. They may not care how many fixed hours you flew but fly one helicopter and you're a helicopter pilot forever. The airlines, like it or not, are dominated by guys with a fixed wing background and they're looking for people who are able to be trained in a hard IFR, aircraft saturated environment flying a transport category jet with maximum performance being demanded of both airplane and aviator. They do not see a helo background as conducive to that so you are almost starting over in some regards.
I,too, did the hiring and firing for a couple of years(I was the chief pilot at my airline before I went back to the line). We looked for an ATP, 2000 hours of fixed wing time, 1000 hours of fixed wing multi time and 500 hours of turbine time(this is where helo time could help.) Internal recommendations can help, but a word of caution, make sure your endorser isn't a sh tbird, those resumes go right in the circular file. A college degree, of course, was most helpful, a Masters didn't move us much one way or the other. A 737 type rating said I'm trying to get on Southwest or I didn't get on Southwest, but it helped in that it says you're trainable. Best of luck to those trying to get on, it's doable but usually frustrating and not always good for the ego.

 

[MasterBates]

I think the Luigi syndrome hurt me as well in the Navy. Once they heard that I was a helo guy, my VT CO (LAMPS guy) kept on pushing me to go helo. Along with IPs, and Flight Leader. (Onwing was from HSL-42, Flight Leader from HSL-44).

What hurts me, is that when I leave, I will have about 2000 total hours, but 1800 of it will be Helos, 1750 of it Turbine.

I am trying to expand my options when I leave the Navy. No HAC cruise is pretty much nailing the coffin lid shut on my career in LAMPS (Will not screen for DH, XO/CO/DHs think my best shot is switching to another community).

In all likelyhood, I am getting out after my shore tour, unless the Warfare Transition Package I have in gets picked up. Not a "gimme what I want, or I get out", but that I will not screen for DH in my current community.