• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Are individual awards getting watered down (ie a NAM for a Det)?

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
Absolutely not, a Chief should know what the DIVO knows and the DIVO should know what the Chief knows, otherwise what happens if something occurs and one or the other doesn't make it in to work for an unplanned reason.
Ok. Glad I misunderstood you.

I have seen a disturbing trend of JO's "letting the Gunny handle it" and "just getting out of the Gunny's way" when it come to all sorts of aspects of running a division.

On some issues, the Gunny/Chief is squarely within his lane, and all the DivO needs to do is stay conversant on that aspect and let him handle things.

On other issues, the DivO has that issue squarely in HIS lane. Writing awards are one of those. The Gunny/Chief should be able to come to the DivO with recommended awards scrawled in bullet form (at best) on an MRE box/cocktail napkin and the DivO should strongly consider that input, discuss any concerns he has with the Gunny/Chief, and write them up in the proper format for submission.

To the JOPA: Officers write awards. Quit dumping your work on your Gunny/Chief. He's got a lot of actual work to do without doing your ground job, too.
 

bert

Enjoying the real world
pilot
Contributor
A good Chief would make sure the DIVO didn't have to worry about who is getting or deserves the awards, he would make it happen.
The Chief should be ready with suggestions (and factual support that is matched by his eval submissions), but the DIVO should be involved enough to already know who deserves what, and the DIVO should be involved in the awards write-up and the awards board process. That is not only how the DIVO learns, but it is also how he leads his division.

And the DIVO is in charge, not the Chief. Make no mistake, a decent (or better) Chief makes the division better, but the idea that a DIVO should just blindly follow his Chief's instructions is as wrong as can be. The DIVO should always be worried about whether or not his people are being properly recognized.

Edit: Never mind; read HD's post with the exception that if he wants to make 8 or 9 then the Gunny/Chief ought to be able to make a try a getting things in the right format.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
MOHs: With absolutely NO disrespect to the heroes that have gone before, very few (if any) of the WWII MOHs awarded to Naval Aviators would have been approved in today's environment. Their environment..and our Navy and nation...were in a different time...which yielded different standards..
It always comes back to: things have been jacked up forever, just in different ways. We always think that the service was full of magical unicorns or something back in the day, while at the time, they were bitching just as much, just about different things.

For WWII awards, high-level combat awards were often given for leadership, not individual valor. For examples, look to Gen MacArthur's MOH for the Phillipines, which was given for PR purposes following the loss of the islands. Only one of Chesty Pullers FIVE NCs would have had a chance in todays environment. Today, Raphael Peralta couldn't get one for smothering a grenade, though that's being reinvestigated. They said he couldn't have made a conscious decision because of his other injuries, so they gave him a NC instead--if he didn't make a conscious decision, then all he should've rated was a PH.

It'd be great if the level of difficulty to earn an award made a steady slope up a chart, but it doesn't. Deal with it. You just have to take care of your people as best you can. Unfortunately, commanders can't fix the system without screwing their folks. It will take a DoN-level initiative to fix it. Odds on that happening? Small. If they tried, the odds of it making things worse? High.
 

BusyBee604

St. Francis/Hugh Hefner Combo!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
...but the DIVO should be involved enough to already know who deserves what, and the DIVO should be involved in the awards write-up and the awards board process. That is not only how the DIVO learns, but it is also how he leads his division.
Right on, bert! It must be remembered that the authority giving final approval, or no-go on an award, most likely doesn't know, nor has ever heard of the potential recipient. The reccommendations should document in detail, the acts, contributions, & any other relevant factors that would justify that award. I believe too much beats too skimpy, as the rec will usually be polished & massaged by DH, (awards board?), XO/CO. Approving authorities are human; ergo, a well-written/documented rec would considerably improve chances of approval. Well written award recs should/would generate positive input on submitter's periodic fitness reports. :)

This is why veteran AWs here, are always counseling 'new/wannabee's' (the lazy or sloppy writers), on one of the absolute requirments for successful Officers, is excellence in writing skills (format, punctuation, spelling, capitalizing, etc.). Just my 2 pesos...:cool:
BzB
 

BusyBee604

St. Francis/Hugh Hefner Combo!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
...one of the absolute requirements for successful Officers, is excellence in writing skills (format, punctuation, spelling, capitalizing, etc.).
Oops:oops:, an ironic typo ... FIFM before someone else does.:rolleyes:
BzB
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Medals? How come 'dem shits gets medals, and we don't gots no medals?

 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
Well as we finish our units deployment it seems that the leadership has taken the opposite side of the pendulum now. We are limiting awards that only years ago would have been handed out like candy in an effort to redefine the gates as far as what earns an award.

Unfortunately we are doing it in the most asinine way possible.

Examples:
-set number of end of service awards based on tiers within the unit and not on actual performance (only 5 Bronze Stars for service per company, only 3 for Battalion staff regardless of actual merit)
-Air Medals down graded to Army Commendation Medals automatically unless an aircraft loss (fallen Angel) was involved
-V device not awarded for aircraft operating above 1000 feet because "your not at any risk up that high." (Its a 58 Commander... go figure)
-Awards for combat being downgraded to non combat awards with a V for valor (how the fuck did that make sense to anybody!) because we're giving out too many ARCOMs.

The engagement that I probably did the most good and saved the most lives was the one that they told us didnt rate any awards. Go figure...
 

KBayDog

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately we are doing it in the most asinine way possible.

Examples:
-set number of end of service awards based on tiers within the unit and not on actual performance (only 5 Bronze Stars for service per company, only 3 for Battalion staff regardless of actual merit)
-Air Medals down graded to Army Commendation Medals automatically unless an aircraft loss (fallen Angel) was involved
-V device not awarded for aircraft operating above 1000 feet because "your not at any risk up that high." (Its a 58 Commander... go figure)
-Awards for combat being downgraded to non combat awards with a V for valor (how the fuck did that make sense to anybody!) because we're giving out too many ARCOMs.
What MEU are you on?
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
What MEU are you on?
Army.

We fall under 3 different people due to our Brigade being broken up into the task force system and handed Opcon and Adcon and every other way to half a dozen commands across Afghanistan.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Pretty sure he knew that ;)

We fall under 3 different people due to our Brigade being broken up into the task force system and handed Opcon and Adcon and every other way to half a dozen commands across Afghanistan.
That kind of arrangement is not entirely unheard of on naval deployments... there is method to the madness but sometimes it seems like more madness than method.

Sorry to see this kind of awards reverse overcompensation shenanigans affecting you and those you serve with. Seen it go back and forth during my time in the Navy and so have a lot of people on here. In the end, you know what you did every time you look in the mirror.

On the bright side, I guess my ARCOM from a few years ago just got more valuable! :rolleyes:
 

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
We fall under 3 different people due to our Brigade being broken up into the task force system and handed Opcon and Adcon and every other way to half a dozen commands across Afghanistan.
Play the game...submit your "individual action/flight" awards up through every COC that thinks they "owned" you.

Service/Campaign Awards: The system is on "auto-fire", yes? XX number of days in the AOR (or whatever the qual is) and you get this (whatever it is). Thank you for your service.

"Exposure/Points-Defined Awards": Strike/Flight Air Medals come to mind. There may be others...track your own points...they count. It's a sad dog that won't wag its own tail.

End of Deployment: Yeah, quota system to sweep up the deserving folks who didn't get anything else, but did great work for the command over some period of hard time. All you can hope for is that your command will pick the most deserving.

End of Tour/Career: Probably the most inflated and BS thingie there is, but who wants to call "shenanigans"? It is what it is...

Individual Combat/Action Awards: Truly, the only ones that should matter. They should be written up within 72 hours of the "action" to be recognized and forwarded up the COC post-haste. If your COC has just let these all "slide" for the end of deployment, they weren't doing their job. Sad fact of life. Do better when it's your turn.

My $.02.
 

CommodoreMid

Whateva! I do what I want!
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Pretty sure he knew that ;)



That kind of arrangement is not entirely unheard of on naval deployments... there is method to the madness but sometimes it seems like more madness than method.

Sorry to see this kind of awards reverse overcompensation shenanigans affecting you and those you serve with. Seen it go back and forth during my time in the Navy and so have a lot of people on here. In the end, you know what you did every time you look in the mirror.

On the bright side, I guess my ARCOM from a few years ago just got more valuable! :rolleyes:
Wait, so you're telling me deciding in the first 1/3 of deployment who gets a post deployment NAM/FLOC makes no sense???????
 
Top