So, 51 is the right answer to their VIP question, right? I take it they won't put wings under my username there, will they?
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Another nail in the coffin of Old-School Naval Avaition..
- Thread starter MasterBates
- Start date
I signed up as an Aviator and was granted access. No smoke or mirrors required.
I signed up as a mid when I wasn't entirely sure I wanted to go aviation. I post and they know I'm a token brownshoe. As said, sometimes a lot of good discussion, despite the aviator haterade that's put out.
Honestly, I don't hate SWOs. I really just pity them. All my SWO friends are completely miserable and are counting the days till they can leave. I don't know why so many of them seem to take pride in a culture that crushes JOs.
Honestly, I don't hate SWOs. I really just pity them. All my SWO friends are completely miserable and are counting the days till they can leave. I don't know why so many of them seem to take pride in a culture that crushes JOs.
Commodore Mid said- Honestly, I don't hate SWOs. I really just pity them. All my SWO friends are completely miserable and are counting the days till they can leave. I don't know why so many of them seem to take pride in a culture that crushes JOs.
Not all SWO's hang out with their former Navy peers on a website. This new age philosophy of we're all miserable and it's "the Man's" fault is actually about 50 years old or older. The popular yet dysfunctional management style of many O-5's and above is nothing proprietary to Surface Warfare. Just wait until you have a marginally satisfying DH tour. It will become 'mo clear after.
And one last thing- You are statistically correct on crushing the JO's. I have no answer for that embarrassing designator phenomena. Maybe that's why I hang out here. JOPA actions is SWOland would probably not end well, for now.
One last item. I was on a ship that went from a command rating of 1 to a rating of 10 and the JO's saw the light. Mom and Dad are everything when it comes to ones warfare specialty experience. I was one of the lucky ones that had the privilege to see how SWOland can be. And yes, the HSL dets hung out with us and enjoyed it!
Not all SWO's hang out with their former Navy peers on a website. This new age philosophy of we're all miserable and it's "the Man's" fault is actually about 50 years old or older. The popular yet dysfunctional management style of many O-5's and above is nothing proprietary to Surface Warfare. Just wait until you have a marginally satisfying DH tour. It will become 'mo clear after.
And one last thing- You are statistically correct on crushing the JO's. I have no answer for that embarrassing designator phenomena. Maybe that's why I hang out here. JOPA actions is SWOland would probably not end well, for now.
One last item. I was on a ship that went from a command rating of 1 to a rating of 10 and the JO's saw the light. Mom and Dad are everything when it comes to ones warfare specialty experience. I was one of the lucky ones that had the privilege to see how SWOland can be. And yes, the HSL dets hung out with us and enjoyed it!
Oh I don't disagree that command climate is a big part of it. There are absolutely miserable aviation commands out there, and some happy SWO ones too. If every SWO command climates were crappy everywhere then no one would make a career out of it. That being said, the numbers of happy JO aviators I know compared to the number of miserable SWO JOs I know is quite telling...
Assuming that the product entering the various pipelines is a statistical norm (personality-wise), how can the personalities of the different communities (and subcommunities) become so different?
Look at Aviation, there is a bit of a difference in the personality of a typical VFA squadron than a typical Helo squadron. Within Helo's there is a different atmosphere between HS, HSL and HC. (Proof, please see OTTO). Since personality is not a graded item on the flight card, how can you account for the differences in squadron environments even within the same CAG?
I don't think the Nature vs. Nurture discussion can be argued here, it has to be Nurtured!
There is also no personality screening prior to selection coming out of the Academy or ROTC so the fact that most SWO's end up with a miserable experience is a product of SWO's wanting it that way. Each community starts with a similar batch of individuals and ends up with very different products (personality-wise).
My point, is that SWO's seem to enjoy misery. They wear it as a badge of honor. And they only have themselves to blame! There is no reason other than personal choice that the SWO community is what it is.
I agree with CommodoreMid, I've seen some pretty low-morale units in aviation (been in one really bad myself) but it was almost always better than the SWO's I've deployed with...
Look at Aviation, there is a bit of a difference in the personality of a typical VFA squadron than a typical Helo squadron. Within Helo's there is a different atmosphere between HS, HSL and HC. (Proof, please see OTTO). Since personality is not a graded item on the flight card, how can you account for the differences in squadron environments even within the same CAG?
I don't think the Nature vs. Nurture discussion can be argued here, it has to be Nurtured!
There is also no personality screening prior to selection coming out of the Academy or ROTC so the fact that most SWO's end up with a miserable experience is a product of SWO's wanting it that way. Each community starts with a similar batch of individuals and ends up with very different products (personality-wise).
My point, is that SWO's seem to enjoy misery. They wear it as a badge of honor. And they only have themselves to blame! There is no reason other than personal choice that the SWO community is what it is.
I agree with CommodoreMid, I've seen some pretty low-morale units in aviation (been in one really bad myself) but it was almost always better than the SWO's I've deployed with...
Well, all I know is this. I'm pretty sure we've all said "at least I'm not a SWO" at least once after a really shitty day. I don't think a SWO would ever say "well, at least I'm not an aviator."
My own theory from my SWO time is that it's a result of there not really being any professional skill on display as there is in aviation. Seamanship was given lip service, yeah, but not really required or valued. At most, it seemed to be viewed as something you should be good enough at long enough to get your pin. After that, "not fucking up epically" was considered sufficient, and never displayed at all once you became a DH. I personally knew SWO DHs who were not allowed on the underway watchbill, period. The Captain didn't trust them not to fuck it away if they weren't under his supervision. There are widely varying degrees of professional skill in aviation, yes, but can any of us imagine a pilot or FO so incompetent the skipper wouldn't allow them on the flight schedule, yet who kept their wings and kept climbing the ladder?
(I'm sure someone will chime in with an example of exactly that from the brownshoe side, but my point is that aviators like that are the exception)
So what's the difference between a really good SWO and a completely incompetent SWO? It's wardroom games, politics and bureaucratism (and things like how many of your guys passed their advancement exams and got their pins, etc - which probably had very little to do with Ensign Timmy's leadership).
I'm not saying we weed out the incompetents in aviation and they don't among the SWO's. We've all worked for dudes who just never farked up bad enough to get FNAEB'ed. Likewise, good sticks who couldn't lead a bunch of sailors into a whorehouse. But when there's no pride, as an organization, in the basic skills of your profession, it's pretty damn hard to sustain any kind of morale or esprit de corps. All that's left is pride in shared suffering, and that doesn't take you too far. So you get this attitude of "aviators are lazy and spoiled - we work hard and everything sucks." And some SWOs who seem to take that to the next level of, "suffering is the mark of a good SWO, therefore, let us all suffer more!"
(I'm sure someone will chime in with an example of exactly that from the brownshoe side, but my point is that aviators like that are the exception)
So what's the difference between a really good SWO and a completely incompetent SWO? It's wardroom games, politics and bureaucratism (and things like how many of your guys passed their advancement exams and got their pins, etc - which probably had very little to do with Ensign Timmy's leadership).
I'm not saying we weed out the incompetents in aviation and they don't among the SWO's. We've all worked for dudes who just never farked up bad enough to get FNAEB'ed. Likewise, good sticks who couldn't lead a bunch of sailors into a whorehouse. But when there's no pride, as an organization, in the basic skills of your profession, it's pretty damn hard to sustain any kind of morale or esprit de corps. All that's left is pride in shared suffering, and that doesn't take you too far. So you get this attitude of "aviators are lazy and spoiled - we work hard and everything sucks." And some SWOs who seem to take that to the next level of, "suffering is the mark of a good SWO, therefore, let us all suffer more!"
I don't know if they're still doing it, but back in the day if you attrited out of flight school, there was a pretty good chance that you would be heading for SWO-land, whether you wanted to or not. I never met an aviator, student or winged, that was attrited from the SWO pipeline and was forced to go to flight school.
I think this is pretty apt. I've seen this among the HSL community lately, since I'm reintegrating into it for a while. It's still better than SWO life, don't get me wrong, but you do get a corporate mantra that develops. I've been asking HSL/M guys why something is a certain way. The answer is often, "Well, it's not me, but it's what someone else may want you to do/ask you..." My response is "Huh?" It's your community, why let someone else make it more painful. Set the trend yourself. I know, I'm just yelling at windmills, but it still bugs me.
Ditto. We just farewell'd an O-4 who was famous for doing random asinine crap and saying, "Do you know what the Skipper wants? He didn't tell me etiher, but I bet when we show him X, he'll ask about Y, so we just gonna go ahead and do Y, Z, and AA now to cover our bases."
Drove us effing nuts. The best was when we were on det and the Skipper wanted a crew picture in front of one of the planes. We stood on the flightline, took the pic, all was good. Then Hingey McHingerson decided, "Well, we're on the flightline and were supposed to have our ears on on the line, so we better take this pic all wearing our mickey mouse ears." Skipper took one look at it and said "WTF is this? You look ridiculous."