OCS 02Nov20 SNA/SNFO (Pilot/NFO) Board

[Genghis95]

Here is a great article on cause of student attrition in the US Naval Aviation Training.

 

[alexng30]

Boxer briefs, the superior form of undies, are the answer for everything 100% of the time.

 

[Ghost SWO]

Here is a great article on cause of student attrition in the US Naval Aviation Training.

Wow, eye opening article. Thank you for posting that!

The fact that drop on request accounts for more than all performance based attrition combined is frustrating. That's hundreds of candidates that decided they didn't want to continue when there are so many people ready and eager to do the job.

Looks like 11% average for medical reasons. That's pretty low and really not something to worry about IMO. I think that's why flight experience is looked on as a bonus because it eliminates some concern for potential medical misses during the MEPS process because they've already gone through a medical examiner and have begun training to some extent.

 

[Fitzou]

Wow, eye opening article.

The fact that drop on request accounts for more than all performance based attrition is really frustrating. That's hundreds of candidates that decided they didn't want to continue when there are so many people ready to do the job.

I'm guessing here, but I'd imagine those drops are accounted for in the recruiting numbers and are expected. The Navy is very good at estimating manning and attrition.

 

[Ghost SWO]

I'm guessing here, but I'd imagine those drops are accounted for in the recruiting numbers and are expected. The Navy is very good at estimating manning and attrition.

True, good point!

 

[BlueSideDown]

Really good insight, thanks! Now that you mention the NAMI WAMMY I have heard that before some time back. I suppose the issue then isn't so much the current waiver as it is the additional medical screening for pilots? That makes sense. So they are really unrelated in the end, my waiver would probably have nothing to do with whatever they could find.

Guess it's a good point to bring up; Visiting an AME (Aviation Medical Examiner) would offer some insight to the process just not to the same depth. If you can qualify for a Class 1 Medical, you're moving in the right direction. I like that the Army will send you to do a full military flight physical before they send in your application. That could clear up this whole mess of N3M and NAMI. I would imagine a high percentage of the people going through are fine. If you get hit by NAMI later, it's honestly for your safety but that wouldn't be fun.

Disclaimer: I am by no means an expert, especially on waivers. I can only imagine that any waiver you have now would apply when you went to NAMI, but I cannot say for sure. Like I said before though, once your there they have other options that they may be able to use to get you through. Example: Your distance vision is borderline 20/40. You pass MEPS and they doc your eyes at 20/40 which is the Navy "applicants" limit for Far vision. You go to NAMI and they doc your eyes at 20/60 or whatever. Long story short, it's over the limit. Guess what, NAMI can issue you glasses and you fly. Eye Astigmatism outside of limits? Here is your PRK paid for by the Navy and 3 months down instead of 6. Rake in that pay check, work the mail room 3 days a week and study in the mean time.

As far as seeing a Civilian AME it cannot hurt. I have had a 1st Class FAA medical for 6 years and I can tell you that they test your urine for internals health, they test your blood pressure and eyes. Doc listens to your heart/lungs and talks to you for ten minutes... thats about it unless you have a history of something.

 

[TheCoon]

I like that the Army will send you to do a full military flight physical before they send in your application. That could clear up this whole mess of N3M and NAMI.

IIRC, the Marine Corps does this, too. I’ve spoken with an OSO and it came up briefly.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Same here. I have been approved two wavers: It stated Approved for Unrestricted Line.

Then a few lines it states. "Code N33 defers to the Naval Medical Operational Training Center Detachment, Naval Aerospace Medical Institute, (NAMI Code 53-HN) for suitability for service in aviation program."

Does this mean I have been approved for a basic waver and might receive approval as SNA from the board and then be turned down by NAMI after getting through this process? any info into the process would be great.

That is what it means, N3M believes you are waiverable but NAMI will make final call later on

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I understand what you're saying. I think what I said was confusing because I didn't mean to say it that way if that's how it came across. Yes, a medical waiver has nothing to do with GPA and ASTB scores. I do know the MEPS Chief was in contact with my recruiter that day and I'm just saying it isn't the MEPS medical personnel that submit the waiver, it's the DoD personnel for your branch. So if your scores are sub-par they may not think it's even worth submitting the waiver request if they're not confident in the scores? I could be wrong, I'm just saying I would feel like I had a better shot at a waiver request and approval if the recruiter knew I was a great candidate and was fighting in my corner.

I was trying to reinforce the idea that their scores are very good and their recruiter knows that, so the recruiter may push hard for a waiver.

Can you explain what N3M and NAMI is and what the process is? I'm unfamiliar with those terms, some others may not know as well. Might correct my knowledge as well if I've got something wrong.

A decent recruiter will submit for a waiver for any candidate that meets the requirements. Basically N3M looks at basic officer requirements and NAMI looks at aviation requirements

 

[aajwalden]

Hello all,

Prior applicant for the May board earlier this year. Giving it another go. Good luck to everyone!

 

[Ghost SWO]

That is what it means, N3M believes you are waiverable but NAMI will make final call later on

With respect,

"NAMI will make the final call and could turn you down later when you're already approved through the process". This is possible. But this is probably related to the flight physical, developing medical conditions, or previously unknown medical conditions that have surfaced, not the waiver. The final call is not on the approval or disapproval of our current waiver, it's on meeting flight physical standards and the possible issuance of new waivers if required. From Genghis95, "NAMI will then determine your 'suitability for service in aviation program' "- Yes, since N3M has already given you a waiver for entrance into the Navy, NAMI will determine your suitability in the aviation program through the flight physical. NAMI can't give a final call on the waiver, we'd already be in the Navy and that's what the waiver is for like you stated.

"N3M believes we are waiverable". I don't understand this. We receive an approved waiver, not a recommendation on paper stating that we are waiverable.

"NAMI looks at aviation requirements". Yes. Through a flight physical of active aviation personnel which is most likely unrelated to the initial waiver to get into the Navy. Once we're accepted into the Navy, I assume the waiver to allow us to do so has served it's purpose. We're not given waivers for entrance into the SNA/NFO pipeline that NAMI needs to consider, we're given waivers to join the Navy. NAMI then determines the full eligibility for flying personnel from that point forward through a flight physical and can issue or not issue additional required waivers as it sees fit.

I believe the process for approval by NAMI is a routine occurrence and is reinforced by the following article,

The Naval Aerospace Research Laboratory says in the article; Causes of Student Attrition in US Naval Aviation Training: A Five Year Review From FY 2003 to FY 2007; On average, "12% of attrition in the flight program is caused by students being Not Physically Qualified (NPQ), and the 12% includes medical conditions developed during the course of training". The article makes no mention of students with waivers, but it does mention finding other medical factors of students not previously caught by MEPS. Since this is true, we know the reasons for our waivers are factors caught by MEPS, and therefore cannot be the conditions stated in the article since they are already known. Right? The issue for medical attrition, are factors unknown at the time of entry into the flight program, not pre-existing known conditions like those already tied to pre-existing waivers.

Many people apply with waivers. Your wording sounded like those people aren't safe because of the waivers, when in reality it's because of unknown conditions not caught by MEPS. For the sake of others I would want to see something like, "Hey, only a few people are turned away from pilot training by NAMI for mostly unknown pre-existing medical conditions, you should be fine if you have a waiver but you will need to pass the flight physical as well".

That's all. We're all stressed out enough in the process as it is, and to drop information like that is disheartening without much context. I'm not trying to stir the pot but I think a lot of information is missing that needs to be fleshed out.

 

[coolhand_505]

Hey all ... couple questions here. My application is mostly complete but I'm running into a long MEPS delay. My recruiter is saying its due to COVID. Has anyone in the Southern California area experienced this? I submitted my 2807 over a month ago. I only ask because I'm hearing from one of my buddies that just did enlisted MEPS at the same facility that he had no problem getting an appointment.

Question #2, My recruiter has mentioned a "rolling aviation board" that meets as needed, sometimes even monthly, once they have enough pilot applicants. Does anyone have any more information on how this board is convened?
So it looks like I won't make the deadline for today but here are my stats.

SNA Only
6/8/7 - 54
Age: 36
Prior Service E-4/O-1 (Marine Corps)
GPA: 2.79
Major: History
Commercial Pilot License (ASEL) - 358 Hours
LOR's. O-7 (ret.), Navy O-6 (ret.), O-4, O-3, etc.
Interview: O-4

 

[exNavyOffRec]

With respect,

"NAMI will make the final call and could turn you down later when you're already approved through the process". This is possible. But this is probably related to the flight physical, developing medical conditions, or previously unknown medical conditions that have surfaced, not the waiver. The final call is not on the approval or disapproval of our current waiver, it's on meeting flight physical standards and the possible issuance of new waivers if required. From Genghis95, "NAMI will then determine your 'suitability for service in aviation program' "- Yes, since N3M has already given you a waiver for entrance into the Navy, NAMI will determine your suitability in the aviation program through the flight physical. NAMI can't give a final call on the waiver, we'd already be in the Navy and that's what the waiver is for like you stated.

"N3M believes we are waiverable". I don't understand this. We receive an approved waiver, not a recommendation on paper stating that we are waiverable.

"NAMI looks at aviation requirements". Yes. Through a flight physical of active aviation personnel which is most likely unrelated to the initial waiver to get into the Navy. Once we're accepted into the Navy, I assume the waiver to allow us to do so has served it's purpose. We're not given waivers for entrance into the SNA/NFO pipeline that NAMI needs to consider, we're given waivers to join the Navy. NAMI then determines the full eligibility for flying personnel from that point forward through a flight physical and can issue or not issue additional required waivers as it sees fit.

I believe the process for approval by NAMI is a routine occurrence and is reinforced by the following article,

The Naval Aerospace Research Laboratory says in the article; Causes of Student Attrition in US Naval Aviation Training: A Five Year Review From FY 2003 to FY 2007; On average, "12% of attrition in the flight program is caused by students being Not Physically Qualified (NPQ), and the 12% includes medical conditions developed during the course of training". The article makes no mention of students with waivers, but it does mention finding other medical factors of students not previously caught by MEPS. Since this is true, we know the reasons for our waivers are factors caught by MEPS, and therefore cannot be the conditions stated in the article since they are already known. Right? The issue for medical attrition, are factors unknown at the time of entry into the flight program, not pre-existing known conditions like those already tied to pre-existing waivers.

Many people apply with waivers. Your wording sounded like those people aren't safe because of the waivers, when in reality it's because of unknown conditions not caught by MEPS. For the sake of others I would want to see something like, "Hey, only a few people are turned away from pilot training by NAMI for mostly unknown pre-existing medical conditions, you should be fine if you have a waiver but you will need to pass the flight physical as well".

That's all. We're all stressed out enough in the process as it is, and to drop information like that is disheartening without much context. I'm not trying to stir the pot but I think a lot of information is missing that needs to be fleshed out.

If you are given a waiver to be able to join NAMI does indeed look at that, nearly all of those I saw get the NAMI whammy were from waivers to enter, asthma and surgery being the leaders, i can think of a few that were found to have issues at OCS the one aviation person I can think of went home as it was a back issue that prevented further service.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Hey all ... couple questions here. My application is mostly complete but I'm running into a long MEPS delay. My recruiter is saying its due to COVID. Has anyone in the Southern California area experienced this? I submitted my 2807 over a month ago. I only ask because I'm hearing from one of my buddies that just did enlisted MEPS at the same facility that he had no problem getting an appointment.

Question #2, My recruiter has mentioned a "rolling aviation board" that meets as needed, sometimes even monthly, once they have enough pilot applicants. Does anyone have any more information on how this board is convened?
So it looks like I won't make the deadline for today but here are my stats.

SNA Only
6/8/7 - 54
Age: 36
Prior Service E-4/O-1 (Marine Corps)
GPA: 2.79
Major: History
Commercial Pilot License (ASEL) - 358 Hours
LOR's. O-7 (ret.), Navy O-6 (ret.), O-4, O-3, etc.
Interview: O-4

Rolling boards have been out for a long time, seems like your recruiter is slow rolling you

 

[Ghost SWO]

If you are given a waiver to be able to join NAMI does indeed look at that, nearly all of those I saw get the NAMI whammy were from waivers to enter, asthma and surgery being the leaders, i can think of a few that were found to have issues at OCS the one aviation person I can think of went home as it was a back issue that prevented further service.

Ah I see, I appreciate the info!