OCS 02Nov20 SNA/SNFO (Pilot/NFO) Board

[Ghost SWO]

the waiver standards are different for you than someone that is a civilian or for someone that is prior service that did not affiliate with the reserves or is outside their MSO, if you were a civilian with the same issue you may have been told "no".

It has to be the same standard for waivers across the board. What isn't the same is opportunity to pre-screen through a flight physical like Kyle.

@kyleerlich has an advantage in that he has gone through the process and received a waiver from NAMI before even getting to the NAMI waiver board, that's huge. That doesn't mean the waiver criteria/standards are different between USN and civilians, the process and opportunity for AD members is different.

Once (we) civilians make it to OCS, and get to flight school for the physical, NAMI will review personnel under the same criteria as current AD personnel because we ARE currently active duty Navy personnel at the time of the NAMI physical. So technically, Kyle and everyone else will be in the same boat sitting in front of the NAMI physical.

We're all AD Navy officers at that point, and the idea of different standards is ultimately irrelevant because none of us are civilians looking for a waiver. We cannot be held to a different standard at that time even if a difference in standards exists because we've all made it through and become officers and the civilian/enlisted title is gone.

I'm not sure what you mean with the different standards and how that fits into the process or timeline for civilians going through with waivers, because at the time of the NAMI flight physical we aren't civilians with a previous waiver, we're Ensigns in the USN and therefore must be held to active duty USN standards right?

 

[exNavyOffRec]

It has to be the same standard for waivers across the board. What isn't the same is opportunity to pre-screen through a flight physical like Kyle.

@kyleerlich has an advantage in that he has gone through the process and received a waiver from NAMI before even getting to the NAMI waiver board, that's huge. That doesn't mean the waiver criteria/standards are different between USN and civilians, the process and opportunity for AD members is different.

Once (we) civilians make it to OCS, and get to flight school for the physical, NAMI will review personnel under the same criteria as current AD personnel because we ARE currently active duty Navy personnel at the time of the NAMI physical. So technically, Kyle and everyone else will be in the same boat sitting in front of the NAMI physical.

We're all AD Navy officers at that point, and the idea of different standards is ultimately irrelevant because none of us are civilians looking for a waiver. We cannot be held to a different standard at that time even if a difference in standards exists because we've all made it through and become officers and the civilian/enlisted title is gone.

I'm not sure what you mean with the different standards and how that fits into the process or timeline for civilians going through with waivers, because at the time of the NAMI flight physical we aren't civilians with a previous waiver, we're Ensigns in the USN and therefore must be held to active duty USN standards right?

There are different standards, there are the standards for those that are civilians, standards for those that are in the USN, and standards for those that are already winged aviators.

What @kyleerlich has may be fine for a person who is in the USN and going to be a SNA, but a person who is a civilian may get turned away for not meeting accessions standards, you see in the case of @kyleerlich the USN has already bought the car and any problems that may come along with it, including disability payments after he leaves the service. If the USN sees that a person has an issue and gives them a waiver if that condition comes back that probably means disability payments, or other issues that could go along with the condition.

There are other conditions that a person who is in the USN that is trying to fly may get denied, but then a winged aviator develops the same condition and is OK to continue to fly.

I have seen people on active duty that applied to be commissioned and were told they did not meet the medical standards for commissioning but were fine to continue service as enlisted.

You are correct that when you are all Ensigns being looked at by NAMI again then the standards would be the same for all of you, it is getting to that point where the path is different.

 

[Coriolanus]

Since we're all playing the waiting game, I thought I'd throw a couple military aviation books on here if anyone is interested. Mix of fiction and non-fiction, but all have been great ways to keep motivation up.

Devotion, by Adam Makos
A higher call, by Adam Makos
Raven One, by Capt. Kevin P. Miller (Ret)
Flight of the Intruder, by Stephen Coonts

Thanks! Motivation is always a good distraction while we wait.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Since we're all playing the waiting game, I thought I'd throw a couple military aviation books on here if anyone is interested. Mix of fiction and non-fiction, but all have been great ways to keep motivation up.

Devotion, by Adam Makos
A higher call, by Adam Makos
Raven One, by Capt. Kevin P. Miller (Ret)
Flight of the Intruder, by Stephen Coonts

For movies don't forget "Down Periscope" as a comedy it is pretty damn close to the stuff that happens with engineers.

 

[Ghost SWO]

There are different standards, there are the standards for those that are civilians, standards for those that are in the USN, and standards for those that are already winged aviators.

What @kyleerlich has may be fine for a person who is in the USN and going to be a SNA, but a person who is a civilian may get turned away for not meeting accessions standards, you see in the case of @kyleerlich the USN has already bought the car and any problems that may come along with it, including disability payments after he leaves the service. If the USN sees that a person has an issue and gives them a waiver if that condition comes back that probably means disability payments, or other issues that could go along with the condition.

There are other conditions that a person who is in the USN that is trying to fly may get denied, but then a winged aviator develops the same condition and is OK to continue to fly.

I have seen people on active duty that applied to be commissioned and were told they did not meet the medical standards for commissioning but were fine to continue service as enlisted.

You are correct that when you are all Ensigns being looked at by NAMI again then the standards would be the same for all of you, it is getting to that point where the path is different.

Yeah I gotcha.

When I was in the AF with a running waiver, I was barred from submitting an OTS packet for a pilot slot because I couldn't take the full PT test with bilateral stress fractures. An officer with the same problem would also have been prevented from applying for a pilot slot.

My point is that a waiver could stop progression wherever you are in the process. It's all about getting as far as you can any to keep pressing forward.

I would argue though, that if they provide a waiver for a pilot to continue, the issue could be waiverable for the enlisted personnel trying to become a pilot. It all depends on if the enlisted guy or civilian knows how to push for it. I think sometimes the officers get preferential treatment which makes it look like there is a different standard when there really isn't.

Officers (and senior enlisted leaders) sometimes pull rank and receive a waiver but that doesn't mean the standard is different between an O-4 and an E-4. The medical personnel caters to one and not the other but the standards for waivers didn't change, the standard of care changed. Maybe that's the real issue? Civilians and lower enlisted members may require higher rank to push an issue, but many officers may have fewer issues and blowback because of their rank.

I understand what you mean about already being in, it's viewed as less of a risk at that point, and the military has already invested so much money!

Thanks for the input!

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Yeah I gotcha.

When I was in the AF with a running waiver, I was barred from submitting an OTS packet for a pilot slot because I couldn't take the full PT test with bilateral stress fractures. An officer with the same problem would also have been prevented from applying for a pilot slot.

My point is that a waiver could stop progression wherever you are in the process. It's all about getting as far as you can any to keep pressing forward.

I would argue though, that if they provide a waiver for a pilot to continue, the issue could be waiverable for the enlisted personnel trying to become a pilot. It all depends on if the enlisted guy or civilian knows how to push for it. I think sometimes the officers get preferential treatment which makes it look like there is a different standard when there really isn't.

Officers (and senior enlisted leaders) sometimes pull rank and receive a waiver but that doesn't mean the standard is different between an O-4 and an E-4. The medical personnel caters to one and not the other but the standards for waivers didn't change, the standard of care changed. Maybe that's the real issue? Civilians and lower enlisted members may require higher rank to push an issue, but many officers may have fewer issues and blowback because of their rank.

I understand what you mean about already being in, it's viewed as less of a risk at that point, and the military has already invested so much money!

Thanks for the input!

You are right a waiver issue could stop you at any point in the process.

Things might be different in the USAF than in the USN, I have seen too many senior officers who needed waivers for one thing or another get denied, the standards are the standards, I worked for an O-4 that needed a waiver due to a prior back issue, with a waiver he would be heading to a position that would essentially guarantee him O-5, even with out DH who was an O-6 fighting for him he was denied and subsequently did not get the position and finished out his time as an O-4, during recruiting there was an HMC that was trying to get commissioned, had a condition that prevented commissioning, her CO who was an O-6 called the waiver authority who at the time was an O-5, the O-5 told the O-6 "no a waiver would not be granted" and a waiver never was.

Too many times I have heard from Navy Medical "yes we could grant a waiver, but why should we, there are others who are qualified that don't need a waiver"

Where I have seen waivers granted is for special skills, Chaplains, Anesthesiologist, Surgeons, or similar.

I wish the system was more fair to everyone, I have seen many great people denied entry, or shown the door.

In the grand scheme of things unfortunately nearly all enlisted and nearly all officers are easily replaceable, we are basically just a number, no one wants to believe that as believing we are unique gives us a sense of importance in what we do.

 

[Ghost SWO]

You are right a waiver issue could stop you at any point in the process.

Things might be different in the USAF than in the USN, I have seen too many senior officers who needed waivers for one thing or another get denied, the standards are the standards, I worked for an O-4 that needed a waiver due to a prior back issue, with a waiver he would be heading to a position that would essentially guarantee him O-5, even with out DH who was an O-6 fighting for him he was denied and subsequently did not get the position and finished out his time as an O-4, during recruiting there was an HMC that was trying to get commissioned, had a condition that prevented commissioning, her CO who was an O-6 called the waiver authority who at the time was an O-5, the O-5 told the O-6 "no a waiver would not be granted" and a waiver never was.

Too many times I have heard from Navy Medical "yes we could grant a waiver, but why should we, there are others who are qualified that don't need a waiver"

Where I have seen waivers granted is for special skills, Chaplains, Anesthesiologist, Surgeons, or similar.

I wish the system was more fair to everyone, I have seen many great people denied entry, or shown the door.

In the grand scheme of things unfortunately nearly all enlisted and nearly all officers are easily replaceable, we are basically just a number, no one wants to believe that as believing we are unique gives us a sense of importance in what we do.

Yeah, well said.

 

[coolhand_505]

I know being prior service myself that we have to send in all of our medical records, I think my pre-screen took a couple weeks to be accepted and reviewed because it was a couple hundred pages. The difference may be that your friend wasn't prior service or didn't submit a huge medical document for pre-screening?

I agree with exNavyOffRec, that doesn't sound right about what the recruiter is telling you about the boards. The SNA/NFO board has had a set schedule for the whole year with the exception of the earlier ones being pushed for COVID but we're not doing rolling boards.

Maybe talk to another recruiter and see what they say?

Thats a good point I did submit my prior service record and medical documents .... perhaps that its what is taking longer. I tend to agree with NavyOfficerRec though -- I think he's slow rolling me. Not sure what to do at this point --- talking to another recruiter would mean resubmitted all of my documents. Thanks for the confirmation about the rolling boards. Appreciate the input.

 

[Coriolanus]

Any other prior Air Force here? got out four years ago for school and here I am now...pulling for Aviation in the Navy!

 

[Ghost SWO]

Any other prior Air Force here? got out four years ago for school and here I am now...pulling for Aviation in the Navy!

Yep, contract ended March last year and I was in the recruiter's office in November lol.

 

[Coriolanus]

Yep, contract ended March last year and I was in the recruiter's office in November lol.

Wow. When did you finish your degree? And did you plan on this the whole time? I was so dead set on just doing the civilian life until by chance I noticed I could pull for pilot. Either way I’m thankful for my time and college and certainly needed the break from the Air Force enlisted life.

 

[Ghost SWO]

Wow. When did you finish your degree? And did you plan on this the whole time? I was so dead set on just doing the civilian life until by chance I noticed I could pull for pilot. Either way I’m thankful for my time and college and certainly needed the break from the Air Force enlisted life.

I completed my degree in 2013 before I joined in 2015, tried to get a pilot slot from the enlisted side but I was in a critically manned job and it was nearly impossible to get out unless I went spec-ops.

I didn't plan it the whole time, but I think in hindsight everything has worked out exactly as it should have. I would have kicked myself if I aged-out without knowing if I could get in. Yeah I bet the break was nice, I'm hoping the Navy officer side is an overall different experience compared to the Air Force.

I thought the Air Force would be the easiest transition back in since I took the AFOQT twice before separating.

AFOQT Scores:
Pilot 98/99
CSO: 98/99
ABM: 95/99

They flat out told me no. Strictly because of my GPA. The same day the AF told me no, the USN recruiter called and introduced himself and said hey, the GPA is a non-issue, come on in and we'll talk and get you set up for a test. The rest is history lol.

Go Navy...

 

[Triumph_MAC]

Best qualified is what they look for, if that happens to be a person with prior service so be it.

I've heard that there is two pools of quotas, one for AD/Reserve and one for civilian applicants. Would you say thats factual or merely just scuttlebutt?

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I've heard that there is two pools of quotas, one for AD/Reserve and one for civilian applicants. Would you say thats factual or merely just scuttlebutt?

It is all about best qualified, if that is a guy who is prior service then great, if not then good for them too.

 

[Ghost SWO]

It is all about best qualified, if that is a guy who is prior service then great, if not then good for them too.

Bummer for no reserved slots

I've heard that there is two pools of quotas, one for AD/Reserve and one for civilian applicants. Would you say thats factual or merely just scuttlebutt?

The USAF reserves pilot slots for active duty personnel.

Heh, the USAF also says the same thing about enlisted jobs. They will keep jobs on the back burner until you get to about the 5th week in basic where you make your dream sheet for jobs. I put five jobs down and thought my 97 ASVAB would help in the selection. Nope. The 97 guaranteed my selection for a critically manned job. That was my first taste of the "Needs of the USAF"... Worked out in the end though, now I get to teach weather in my aviation ground schools and help pilots with their weather knowledge and application. ?