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USN The Slow Death Of The Carrier Air Wing - Or a CSAR Threadjack

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
In a high end maritime fight PR just looks different then we're used to it being. I'd think that the WWII in the Pacific would offer the most readily available corollary. During WWII lifeguard subs were extensively used in areas that we didn't have maritime supremacy such as initial raids on japanese held islands and the late war carrier strikes on Japan. Most famously, LTJG Bush was rescued by USS Finback off of Chichi JIma:

In areas that have been vacated by the enemy you'd like see post-battle SAR efforts such as was done after Midway when ENS Gay was picked up. Since that wouldn't be opposed I'd imagine that VP, RW, and surface assets would be involved.

Gator also pointed out that a 60R isn't a PR asset. When I said "CSAR Det on a small boy" I meant HSC or USAF a/c operating closer to the land. During Vietnam the RW CSAR assets would be staged onboard the PIRAZ ships that were closer to Vietnam.

Solid post, thanks. Point of order, no small boys will embark "slick" helos (HSC/USAF) in a fight. Not a thing, I promise.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
Solid post, thanks. Point of order, no small boys will embark "slick" helos (HSC/USAF) in a fight. Not a thing, I promise.

Yeah...if you don’t bring a radar and underwater sensors, you’re just not really helpful against a peer maritime threat.

And even if we did, we wouldn’t have the luxury of stationing picket ships in PIRAZ stations near shore against a high end threat either.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Solid post, thanks. Point of order, no small boys will embark "slick" helos (HSC/USAF) in a fight. Not a thing, I promise.
How to balance the requirements between shooters and support ships is up pto fleet staffs but how to recover personnel is something that would need to be considered. Keep in mind that we're talking about PR as though it only applies to Aviators. In a big fight there will likely be a need to recover Sailors from ships that have been sunk by enemy action. The USN maintained a strong PR effort in WWII and it paid dividends in terms of morale and in returning experienced personnel to the fight. The IJN didn't do the same and lost many experienced personnel and left them with very few experienced personnel by the end of the war.

@BigRed389: concur that picket ships near an enemy coast would require maritime supremacy as I mentioned in an earlier post. Or a willingness to take losses to support the big picture such as at Oki when the radar Pickett DDs suffered terribly from kamikazes to protect the CVs and landing force.

I understand why you wouldn't want to tie up a DDG doing lifeguard duty but there may be other ways. Maybe a use for LCS? Or keep a long term PR det afloat on an LPD or other ship that may be less used in a peer naval conflict. Or just use the DDG as a lilypad for PR assets on the CVN. I'm in no position to know what's best, just some need on the internets.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
There are places to do that on SIPR. I think we tried setting that up about 8-10 years ago, but it didn't get used.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
It’s posts like these that makes me wish we had a SIPR Airwarriors.
I'll point out that I read @azguy and @BigRed389 posts as:
"In a peer naval war you'd want to maximize the SUW/ASW capabilities of a DDG. Trading out a 60R for other helos would negatively affect the desired SUW/ASW capability."

I see that as the correct textbook answer. What may actually happen will be up to the Boss(es).

A few interesting (to me at least) historical anecdotes about aviation assets on CRUDES:
-during the Guadalcanal campaign the cruisers would often fly their VO aircraft ashore when surface engagements were expected. Based on the first surface action at Guadalcanal the ships' captains judged that having the VO aircraft on board was too much of a DC risk.
-during Normandy it was determined that the standard VO aircraft would be at risk against the luftwaffe. So the VOs traded their scout planes for Spitfires as early "Fast FACs."
 

red_stang65

Well-Known Member
pilot
Most bosses don’t know HSC/60S exists.

Further supported by the fact Navy Times and most USNI articles (and photo captions) can’t tell the difference between an MH-60R and MH-60S.

Heck, CNAF’s Facebook page can’t even get the acronym for HSM correct:
 

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Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Further supported by the fact Navy Times and most USNI articles (and photo captions) can’t tell the difference between an MH-60R and MH-60S.
Don't feel too bad. They can't tell the difference between a Rhino and a Growler either.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
I can't be too hard on the Navy Times when the Naval Air Systems Command says that the TH-57 has a turbofan engine


22786

smileys and shit...
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
How to balance the requirements between shooters and support ships is up pto fleet staffs but how to recover personnel is something that would need to be considered. Keep in mind that we're talking about PR as though it only applies to Aviators. In a big fight there will likely be a need to recover Sailors from ships that have been sunk by enemy action. The USN maintained a strong PR effort in WWII and it paid dividends in terms of morale and in returning experienced personnel to the fight. The IJN didn't do the same and lost many experienced personnel and left them with very few experienced personnel by the end of the war.

@BigRed389: concur that picket ships near an enemy coast would require maritime supremacy as I mentioned in an earlier post. Or a willingness to take losses to support the big picture such as at Oki when the radar Pickett DDs suffered terribly from kamikazes to protect the CVs and landing force.

I understand why you wouldn't want to tie up a DDG doing lifeguard duty but there may be other ways. Maybe a use for LCS? Or keep a long term PR det afloat on an LPD or other ship that may be less used in a peer naval conflict. Or just use the DDG as a lilypad for PR assets on the CVN. I'm in no position to know what's best, just some need on the internets.

If we ever get our FFG act together, maybe. LCS sure, but you tell me how comfortable you would be on a air det embarked on a ship with very little organic ability to defend itself.

Ditto if the surface force ever actually drives towards more meaningful signature reduction on our surface combatants.
 

red_stang65

Well-Known Member
pilot
It’s been quiet for a while, but there were very similar conversations over at the Baseops forum a while back. It’s crazy how even the USAF RQS folks have to fight for relevancy so frequently, despite even having a much clearer/singular role than HSC, and even after rescuing the current CoS of the Air Force.

CSAR to AFSOC (read: HSC and SOF support)

CSAR Air Taxi (read: basically this whole thread)

 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
In a high end maritime fight PR just looks different then we're used to it being. I'd think that the WWII in the Pacific would offer the most readily available corollary. During WWII lifeguard subs were extensively used in areas that we didn't have maritime supremacy such as initial raids on japanese held islands and the late war carrier strikes on Japan.
As you mentioned, a lot of this will be on the staffs tasked with giving their bosses CONOPs to execute. But what I'd be interested to see in this regard is the risk calculus of risking a modern SSN compared with a WWII fleet boat. Not the same thing. And I say that as the grandson of a WWII fleet boat XO who had to dig out what happened after he passed, because he never talked about the war.
I see that as the correct textbook answer. What may actually happen will be up to the Boss(es).
A bit earlier in life, I was wrapping up a deployment, and thought I was going to go home and spend a bunch of leave backpacking the Grand Canyon. Instead, I and 5,000 of my closest friends (cough, cough) ended up turning circles in the Red Sea waiting to see whether or not they needed us to kick Mr. al-Assad in the junk for gassing his own people. Nothing ever happened on that front, and I don't mean to imply it made me some SME in crisis action planning. But on the UNCLASS level, it was interesting to see which recommendations of various TACMANS and other pubs were seen as credible, and which ones were not, when people's varied pink-to-brown asses might have actually been at risk. Some moderate amount of ink was spilled writing articles on the high side about that fact afterward.
 
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