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USN The Slow Death Of The Carrier Air Wing - Or a CSAR Threadjack

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
Given the threat, I don't think you're likely to see US helos (or ships) operating in the Chinese littorals.

As much as I dump on HSC, I think it's a valuable mission - who says we will end up fighting China in China? Who's to say it won't be a fight in any number of smaller islands, or at least several fights at once that include many smaller islands. It's not a hard scenario to imagine given their 9 Dash Line and the investments they are making all over the Pacific (and Africa and the Middle East for that matter).
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
As much as I dump on HSC, I think it's a valuable mission - who says we will end up fighting China in China? Who's to say it won't be a fight in any number of smaller islands, or at least several fights at once that include many smaller islands. It's not a hard scenario to imagine given their 9 Dash Line and the investments they are making all over the Pacific (and Africa and the Middle East for that matter).
Sure, but as a general proposition, my previous statement is valid in most cases.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
Sure, but as a general proposition, my previous statement is valid in most cases.

Sure, but in that case, how many manned 4th Gen Fighters are we going to be sending into China? Let's keep it at a rhetorical to keep it all UNCLAS, but my point is that China is dangerous for almost all manned airborne the forces. I have to think you'd be seeing a war of missile lobbing and submarines if mainland China were to ever come into play, in which case, PR isn't all that much of a mission to begin with.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
As much as I dump on HSC, I think it's a valuable mission - who says we will end up fighting China in China? Who's to say it won't be a fight in any number of smaller islands, or at least several fights at once that include many smaller islands. It's not a hard scenario to imagine given their 9 Dash Line and the investments they are making all over the Pacific (and Africa and the Middle East for that matter).
Does HSC train to overwater opposed PR?
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
Sure, but in that case, how many manned 4th Gen Fighters are we going to be sending into China? Let's keep it at a rhetorical to keep it all UNCLAS, but my point is that China is dangerous for almost all manned airborne the forces. I have to think you'd be seeing a war of missile lobbing and submarines if mainland China were to ever come into play, in which case, PR isn't all that much of a mission to begin with.

This comparison doesn't make sense if you think about the radius of a helo vs a (tanked) strike fighter. I agree that PR won't be nearly as big of a thing we've become accustomed to in the desert in a knock-down drag-out fight in the Pacific; the distances and distributed threat likely won't support it.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Sure, but in that case, how many manned 4th Gen Fighters are we going to be sending into China? Let's keep it at a rhetorical to keep it all UNCLAS, but my point is that China is dangerous for almost all manned airborne the forces. I have to think you'd be seeing a war of missile lobbing and submarines if mainland China were to ever come into play, in which case, PR isn't all that much of a mission to begin with.
Right - that was my larger point. I should have been more precise.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
This comparison doesn't make sense if you think about the radius of a helo vs a (tanked) strike fighter. I agree that PR won't be nearly as big of a thing we've become accustomed to in the desert in a knock-down drag-out fight in the Pacific; the distances and distributed threat likely won't support it.
There are ways to deal with that. You can put CSAR dets on small boys closer to the target like was done in Vietnam. Obviously requires you to have maritime supremacy. Or you could do lifeguard subs like was done in WWII.
 

red_stang65

Well-Known Member
pilot
The idea of adding HAAR for helos usually comes to mind when talking blue water PR ops. The main dilemma, though, is what the tanking platform looks like. K/HC-130s are great, but that presumes they can get to the area. Now, the MQ-25, however...?
 

HSMPBR

Not a misfit toy
pilot
There are ways to deal with that. You can put CSAR dets on small boys closer to the target like was done in Vietnam. Obviously requires you to have maritime supremacy. Or you could do lifeguard subs like was done in WWII.
From the new Commandant.

“I do not believe joint forcible entry operations (JFEO) are irrelevant or an operational anachronism; however, we must acknowledge that different approaches are required given the proliferation of anti-access/area denial (A2AD) threat capabilities in mutually contested spaces. Visions of a massed naval armada nine nautical miles off-shore in the South China Sea preparing to launch SOF support and CSAR are impractical and unreasonable,” he wrote.

https://news.usni.org/2019/07/18/ne...-modernize-usmc-for-high-end-fight#more-68131
Replaced “amphibs” and “LCACs.” Even the USMC is concerned about big blue-water warfare. PR is important in that realm, but it needs more wet suits and less combat pants. Maritime supremacy will be the goal.
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
There are ways to deal with that. You can put CSAR dets on small boys closer to the target like was done in Vietnam. Obviously requires you to have maritime supremacy. Or you could do lifeguard subs like was done in WWII.

  1. I know zip-point-shit about CSAR/PR. I've been around enough to soak in how the joint/interagency world executes it (very broad brush strokes).
  2. Have a lot of exposure to what this kind of fight may look like, in many iterations, in very high fidelity.
  3. I've seen zero helo representation at any of the many events I've been to (mentioned in #2)...that's a problem.
I think that PR as we know it today, basically ceases to exist in a high-end fight. If you disagree, fine, and you may know better than me but I know enough to be entitled to this opinion. If I were in charge; I absolutely would never send a -60R (+4 crew) over the horizon (probably to die) in search of a small number of survivors (in this specific high-end Pacific fight).
 
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Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
If I were in charge; I absolutely would never send a -60R (+4 crew) over the horizon (probably to die) in search of a small number of survivors (in this specific high-end Pacific fight).

Nor should you, since that's not what it was designed to do.

That said, hearing that there isn't helo representation at certain planning meetings isn't surprising. The community is terrible at that unless leadership cares and pushes personnel to attend (which does happen, but it's cyclical).
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
  1. I know zip-point-shit about CSAR/PR. I've been around enough to soak in how the joint/interagency world executes it (very broad brush strokes).
  2. Have a lot of exposure to what this kind of fight may look like, in many iterations, in very high fidelity.
  3. I've seen zero helo representation at any of the many events I've been to (mentioned in #2)...that's a problem.
I think that PR as we know it today, basically ceases to exist in a high-end fight. If you disagree, fine, and you may know better than me but I know enough to be entitled to this opinion. If I were in charge; I absolutely would never send a -60R (+4 crew) over the horizon (probably to die) in search of a small number of survivors (in this specific high-end Pacific fight).
In a high end maritime fight PR just looks different then we're used to it being. I'd think that the WWII in the Pacific would offer the most readily available corollary. During WWII lifeguard subs were extensively used in areas that we didn't have maritime supremacy such as initial raids on japanese held islands and the late war carrier strikes on Japan. Most famously, LTJG Bush was rescued by USS Finback off of Chichi JIma:

In areas that have been vacated by the enemy you'd like see post-battle SAR efforts such as was done after Midway when ENS Gay was picked up. Since that wouldn't be opposed I'd imagine that VP, RW, and surface assets would be involved.

Gator also pointed out that a 60R isn't a PR asset. When I said "CSAR Det on a small boy" I meant HSC or USAF a/c operating closer to the land. During Vietnam the RW CSAR assets would be staged onboard the PIRAZ ships that were closer to Vietnam.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Nor should you, since that's not what it was designed to do.

That said, hearing that there isn't helo representation at certain planning meetings isn't surprising. The community is terrible at that unless leadership cares and pushes personnel to attend (which does happen, but it's cyclical).
 
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