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Ammo matters, who knew.....
- Thread starter Bevo16
- Start date
For the new handloaders, just make sure to experiment, I've seen variations of a hundredth of an inch either way make a difference in groupings.
What can suck is if the bullets are extended too far and won't fit into the magazines, so it's sort of a tradeoff on magazine fed rifles and how close the bullet can actually be too the lands.
The Army is trying to field "Green Ammo"; of course the Marines are going with the more deadly bullet...
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/04/army_deadlier_round_040210w/
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/04/army_deadlier_round_040210w/
This thread is relevant to my interests.
I just got a bunch of second hand reloading gear from my father-in-law since he no longer uses it and is moving. I haven't even had time to look through the box but I think it is everything I need except a .308 dye (did I spell that right? Or is it "die") So, I suppose I have to get that. He has all I need for a .25-06, so I suppose I now have an excuse to buy a .25-06! New toy!
Any advice for an absolute rookie? I have no clue what I am doing. I'm pretty sure that there is a manual in there, but it was probably printed in 1975. I'm guessing that there is new material out there. Maybe not. Does powder keep for a long time or should I junk the stuff that's in there and start new? Best place to get the materials (brass, powder, primers, etc.)?
Break, break: Bevo, I've been shooting the Federal 150 gr. Federals (blue box cheapies) and have actually been very pleased with them. I'm not exactly Carlos Hathcock, here, but I can shoot a hell of a group out to about 300 yards and it puts whitetails on their nose.
As to the thread title, I found that ammo absolutely matters in one case: I got a shiny, new Savage .308 for Christmas last year. It was my first truly left-handed gun and I was so proud. I take it to the range on our ranch and decide to use this shitty Russian crap that my buddy had left behind from a previous hunting trip (he shoots an M1A at an accelerated rate. The cheaper the better for him. More on that later). Anyway, my plan was to just get it on paper with this crappy ammo then switch to my regular hunting ammo.
On the first fucking round the neck of the casing expanded and I couldn't get the bolt to pull back. I drive all the way out to Concho County (not too far from your place in Brady, Bevo) from Midland and I get one stinking round out of it before I have to drive back to get it to a gun shop. Awesome. So, don't do that, kids. That ammo works fine in an M1A, despite the extra cleaning you'll have to do, but don't try it in a bolt action.
I just got a bunch of second hand reloading gear from my father-in-law since he no longer uses it and is moving. I haven't even had time to look through the box but I think it is everything I need except a .308 dye (did I spell that right? Or is it "die") So, I suppose I have to get that. He has all I need for a .25-06, so I suppose I now have an excuse to buy a .25-06! New toy!
Any advice for an absolute rookie? I have no clue what I am doing. I'm pretty sure that there is a manual in there, but it was probably printed in 1975. I'm guessing that there is new material out there. Maybe not. Does powder keep for a long time or should I junk the stuff that's in there and start new? Best place to get the materials (brass, powder, primers, etc.)?
Break, break: Bevo, I've been shooting the Federal 150 gr. Federals (blue box cheapies) and have actually been very pleased with them. I'm not exactly Carlos Hathcock, here, but I can shoot a hell of a group out to about 300 yards and it puts whitetails on their nose.
As to the thread title, I found that ammo absolutely matters in one case: I got a shiny, new Savage .308 for Christmas last year. It was my first truly left-handed gun and I was so proud. I take it to the range on our ranch and decide to use this shitty Russian crap that my buddy had left behind from a previous hunting trip (he shoots an M1A at an accelerated rate. The cheaper the better for him. More on that later). Anyway, my plan was to just get it on paper with this crappy ammo then switch to my regular hunting ammo.
On the first fucking round the neck of the casing expanded and I couldn't get the bolt to pull back. I drive all the way out to Concho County (not too far from your place in Brady, Bevo) from Midland and I get one stinking round out of it before I have to drive back to get it to a gun shop. Awesome. So, don't do that, kids. That ammo works fine in an M1A, despite the extra cleaning you'll have to do, but don't try it in a bolt action.
Will the greenies not be happy until we develop a weapon that kills people with nothing more harmful than unicorn farts and puppy kisses? Oh no...all those dead bodies are really going to be peeved about the lead poisoning they picked up after the fact...ironic considering that an acute case of lead poisoning to the dome piece is what probably killed them in the first place.
FlyinRock
Registered User
Back in the day when I was shooting with the USMC Team, M-1 and M-14, we often found particular lots of ammo that did well for matches and others that were just good for practice. Same held true for 45acp. Each gun will shoot differently with ammo/bullet/powder combination. I have match guns that I have developed loads for that are sub minute and consistently. Put some other match lot ammo in them and there is no way to predict accuracy or point of impact. That is a well known fact of many years with military competitors for both rifle and pistol.
Some ammo I can shoot 1"inch groups and other loads take a poncho to cover. That holds true for both rifle and pistol. Loading is lots of fun and can be very rewarding when it comes time for matches, hunting, or ????? I have no idea of how many rounds I have shot but my match info tells me more than a million of just the 45acp in the past 60 years.
There must be more than 3-4 times that with total rounds downrange. Well, I guess that and $10 will get me a cup of coffee someplace......
Semper Fi
Rocky
Distinguished Pistol and Presidents 100 (yahooo BFD)
Some ammo I can shoot 1"inch groups and other loads take a poncho to cover. That holds true for both rifle and pistol. Loading is lots of fun and can be very rewarding when it comes time for matches, hunting, or ????? I have no idea of how many rounds I have shot but my match info tells me more than a million of just the 45acp in the past 60 years.
There must be more than 3-4 times that with total rounds downrange. Well, I guess that and $10 will get me a cup of coffee someplace......
Semper Fi
Rocky
Distinguished Pistol and Presidents 100 (yahooo BFD)
Floppy_D
I am the hunted
Mornin' Boomhower,
The High Road reloading sticky Great gun forum, lots of helpful people. Start with that 101, and then ask away.
Anything else, let us know, and welcome to the addiction.
Here's a good start:
The High Road reloading sticky Great gun forum, lots of helpful people. Start with that 101, and then ask away.
There is, but the only thing that has changed is newer powders and newer calibers. The manual is still good. You can still load any pistol with Unique and any rifle with H4895. Some things are timeless.
As long as it didn't get wet, it will be fine. I've got some circa 70s DuPont powders that I still use. If they are sealed, that's even better.
Range pick-up is the cheapest brass source. for 25-06, you might have to order from Graf's and sons, or you could reform some 30-06 brass. If you are ordering bulk (like 5k+ primers) Powder Valley Inc is hard to beat. Same with Graf's and sons. There should be a local gun shop that sells reloading components; find out what their price on 1000 primers is, and compare it online. There is a $20 hazmat fee for shipping primers and powder, but the bulk savings make up for it.
Anything else, let us know, and welcome to the addiction.
Floppy_D, thanks. I'll hang on to this info. Most of it is reading like Chinese arithmatic right now, but I learn fast. I'll consult you and CAMike when I get going.
And, I realize how much I showed my ass by misspelling "die". Friggin' rookies!
One stop shopping here on AirWarriors, I tell ya.
One question about "range pick up": Will any .308 brass do for reloading? I mean if the guy next to me is shooting plain-jane Remington, Winchester, Federal can I just steal his stuff or is there something I need to look for?
And, I realize how much I showed my ass by misspelling "die". Friggin' rookies!
One stop shopping here on AirWarriors, I tell ya.
One question about "range pick up": Will any .308 brass do for reloading? I mean if the guy next to me is shooting plain-jane Remington, Winchester, Federal can I just steal his stuff or is there something I need to look for?
I don't reload but I've shot enough surplus 7.62/.308 to know that some surplus brass is better than others and some isn't reloadable at all.
I have fired many a round of berdan primed 7.62 surplus that isn't reloadable. (with many thousands left to shoot LOL) If you look down into the neck of the casing and see two holes it's berdan primed and can't be reloaded. Also most surplus ammo has crimped primers that I've heard can be problematic for some dies. Some surplus brass (Hurtenburger to name one) is known to be pretty soft as well which can limit the number of times it can be re-loaded.
As always YMMV....
In the reading that I did yesterday, I came across a nugget that I was not aware of:
I previously knew that 5.56 and .233 are (while normally compatable) not identical. I THOUGHT .308 Winchester and 7.62 surplus was the same...it isn't. Max case pressures for 7.62 are lower, which explains why my surplus ammo was impacting 2 inches lower when the bullet was 10% lighter.
I am not sure how that impacts reloading, since there was not a warning against putting a .308 powder charge into surplus brass. Something to keep in mind when bringing loads out to the range though. The complexity of this stuff feels like drinking from a fire hose at first, but I am starting to pick up the vocabulary.
I previously knew that 5.56 and .233 are (while normally compatable) not identical. I THOUGHT .308 Winchester and 7.62 surplus was the same...it isn't. Max case pressures for 7.62 are lower, which explains why my surplus ammo was impacting 2 inches lower when the bullet was 10% lighter.
I am not sure how that impacts reloading, since there was not a warning against putting a .308 powder charge into surplus brass. Something to keep in mind when bringing loads out to the range though. The complexity of this stuff feels like drinking from a fire hose at first, but I am starting to pick up the vocabulary.
Your spidey senses are tingling for a reason. It would be time well spent if you did a bit of internet research on reloading specifically for the Garand and M1A/M14 before you dive in using commercial reloading data. Keep in mind most of that data is developed for bolt guns. Bolt guns don't have op rods that bend, break or become lodged in your forehead if you screw the pooch bad enough. Slamfires and soft primers can be bad for your health as well. People safely reload for Garands and M1A's all the time. Just do the research.
Here is a good place to start.....
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm
While it's all decent enough stuff at low levels I don't pick up rifle brass at the range. You just don't know how it's been treated and you really are dealing with some high pressures. Just go ahead and pick up 250 rounds of new brass of your choice, and at this point that is Remington or Winchester, your choice. No reason to go to Lapua yet.
Floppy_D gave you good advice and any decent manual will have step by step directions but a newer manual is better. With increased testing my older manuals now have loads that are way over the maximum. Speaking of tools, buy a chronograph! You'll be in for about $200 with decent tripod and it will be the best safety and performance tool you can get.
This brings to mind an experience I had when I was competing with the Navy Pistol team. We were shooting a 2700 at the 12th Precinct Pistol Club (DC area) back around '74. We always left our brass for the civilian competitors to pick up as it was supplied by Uncle and no one on the team needed to reload anyway.
I'm in the middle of a 10 shot slow fire string and I look down to see a hand reaching for a piece of .45 brass between my legs, from behind! I couldn't decide whether to stomp on the hand, put a round in it or fart in the guy's face. Needless to say, it blew my concentration for the last 2 shots.
A simple fart would have sufficed. I too am a brass range hound, but that has limits as well. Unless I see the stuff come out of a new box of ammo- I don't pick it up. That said I have 2- 8 quart size containers of once fired .223 and assorted pistol brass. 45, 40 and 9. .308 is always Lapua just because I have a hard time personally accepting nothing less than my best effort with that caliber. In 308 it's , 1. Lapua, 2. Norma, 3. Winchester due to case thickness and consistency issues.
Take a tip from the golfers- if someone breaks your concentration just step away for a few seconds and mentally reset. Just practice your concentration skills by bouncing a ball while...'um learning EP's or something.
Bevo- Military brass has thicker walls than "civillian" brass. If you use military brass you will need to back off all civillian reloading charges by 10%. Then work up the load in small increments until you start to see overpressure signs.
Military brass also has a crimped in primer. You will need to remove the crimp with a swage before reloading.