Time to train (civilians flying military jets and Harriers vs conventional aircraft)

[phrogpilot73]

Give them a call - you SHOULD be able to set up an appointment.

Not at the ever-so-efficiency that is Ft Meade...:icon_rage

 

[Harrier Dude]

In my dumb helo guy mind, I envision helo hovering akin to hanging on to an I-beam Col Ripley style, and Harrier hovering like tip-toeing along the top of the same I-beam.

I think that a helo guy transitioning to a Harrier would be relatively easy for the hovering part (and if you disagree, I invite you to try and hover a TH-57B or CH-46E with AFCS off) -

I have soloed the TH-57B. Everybody thought that it would make it easier for me to fly the Harrier since "I already knew how to hover". I don't think it made any difference at all.

The two are just different. A helo is pretty unstable and the control inputs have nearly instant effect. The Harrier is fairly stable in the hover, but the control inputs are sluggish by comparasion. There are no torque corrections in terms of yaw, and the throttle is set up alomst exactly opposite to a collective. The only similarity is that the sight picture is like "flying formation off of the ground" in both cases, but a Harrier hovers at NLT 50', while most helos are more like 5'. At least I knew what box patterns and pedal turns were.

....but that flying fast would be the harder part for us to grasp. I seem to remember a discussion about Harrier mishap rates that involved a huge spike after their first couple of years because they started transitioning helo guys, and they weren't crashing in a hover - but were suffering from CFIT because they weren't used to flying 4 bills. Of course, I could be mistaken in that last little nugget.

I think that some of the early challenges with helo-Harrier transitions were just that. There was a false expectation that the hovering similarities would make it easier. In fact, it had no effect. That may have led to overconfidence.

The problems with most helo transition guys is dealing with life at 4X the speed. Not just CFIT, although that's the most immediate and readily intentifiable threat, but up and away as well. Even in instrument flight. The helo guys sometimes still look "just inside the rotor arc" when they need to be looking several miles/minutes downrange.

I have buddies that fly C-35s with helo guys. They say the same thing. The jet guys are way out in front of the aircraft and the helo bubbas concentrate on the airspace/procedure right in front of them.

This isn't meant to be chopper bashing. It's just a matter of retraining your brain to think farther out. Not necesarily faster. It's not a matter of smart/dumb, just a time/distance problem. Ten miles from now is 5-10 minutes at helo speed. You have time to make a decision or perform a procedure later. The same distance is 1-2.5 minutes away at jet speeds. There is less time to make a decision.

Anyway, it's been done sucessfully before. The current MAG-14 CO is a helo transition guy.

 

[Flash]

Not at the ever-so-efficiency that is Ft Meade...:icon_rage

Give them a call - you SHOULD be able to set up an appointment.

I am not sure that you would be able to swing it at a Navy Reserve center but NAF Washington (the Navy/Reserve side of Andrews) takes appointments during the week. I don't have a number on but I could get it if you are interested. Another idea, does the support base for Annapolis do them?

 

[FLYTPAY]

You're not even solo-ing in the RAG with 8 hrs in the Harrier... and the AV-8B is a whole 'nother animal from a Sea Harrier/AV-8A. A civilian buying and trying to fly a Harrier would likely make a nice smoking hole in the ground. There's a reason our time to train is the longest in Marine aviation and we leave the RAG with a lower CRP than Hornet Cat I's.

I would say that a prior-military TACAIR pilot could likely easily transition to most other conventional airframes (eg. Jaguar) in a short amount of time and still be proficient enough to be safe... but not a Harrier.

What I meant was "legally speaking"....noone will ever get a Harrier rating on the civilian side with that amount of time.....there are guys that get experimental jet type ratings with 1000 hours/500 PIC that the highest performance AC they have flown prior to that was a Beech Bonanza. Throw them into a Czech jet and it is entertaining....throw them into a MIG15/17, it is more dangerous than entertaining but still provides a good laugh. 8-15 hours is typical for the amount of training a civilian gets prior to going to the FAA examiner.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I am not sure that you would be able to swing it at a Navy Reserve center but NAF Washington (the Navy/Reserve side of Andrews) takes appointments during the week. I don't have a number on but I could get it if you are interested. Another idea, does the support base for Annapolis do them?

As a matter of fact, they do. Didn't think about that one (I did think about NAF though, since that's where I got my flight physical done). I've got both their numbers (if anyone's looking for ID Card centers, check this link. It allows you to search by city, state, zip, etc... and will identify if it's a CAC place or not)

 

[Scoob]

As a matter of fact, they do. Didn't think about that one (I did think about NAF though, since that's where I got my flight physical done). I've got both their numbers (if anyone's looking for ID Card centers, check this link. It allows you to search by city, state, zip, etc... and will identify if it's a CAC place or not)

Here you go, make your appointment online:

https://es.cac.navy.mil/

Don't see NSA Annapolis or USNA on there, but PSD Washington (on NSF Anacostia) is, as well as NAF Washington.






...Ft. Meade is on there, too, but what fun would that be.

 

[phrogdriver]

I have buddies that fly C-35s with helo guys. They say the same thing. The jet guys are way out in front of the aircraft and the helo bubbas concentrate on the airspace/procedure right in front of them.

This isn't meant to be chopper bashing. It's just a matter of retraining your brain to think farther out. Not necesarily faster. It's not a matter of smart/dumb, just a time/distance problem. Ten miles from now is 5-10 minutes at helo speed. You have time to make a decision or perform a procedure later. The same distance is 1-2.5 minutes away at jet speeds. There is less time to make a decision.

Anyway, it's been done sucessfully before. The current MAG-14 CO is a helo transition guy.

Agreed. Luckily, with the exception of fleet support aircraft, the helo-to-jet transitions are pretty few in number and relatively experienced. I do imagine that some un-learning has to go on.

Helo guys tend to think that hovering is some sort of mystical holy grail, but it is very particular to the type of aircraft. The V-22 initial assession training is still built around this premise, and it will continue to be, because (IMO) if we say we don't need the helo prep, they won't beef up the hours somewhere else. Instead, they'll just say, "Oh, lieutenants don't need to know how to hover? We have plenty of other places to spend that money." Our jet transitions do just fine, once they crack the nose attitude and ground effect codes.

 

[Gatordev]

The problems with most helo transition guys is dealing with life at 4X the speed. Not just CFIT, although that's the most immediate and readily intentifiable threat, but up and away as well. Even in instrument flight. The helo guys sometimes still look "just inside the rotor arc" when they need to be looking several miles/minutes downrange.

I have buddies that fly C-35s with helo guys. They say the same thing. The jet guys are way out in front of the aircraft and the helo bubbas concentrate on the airspace/procedure right in front of them.

This isn't meant to be chopper bashing. It's just a matter of retraining your brain to think farther out. Not necesarily faster. It's not a matter of smart/dumb, just a time/distance problem. Ten miles from now is 5-10 minutes at helo speed. You have time to make a decision or perform a procedure later. The same distance is 1-2.5 minutes away at jet speeds. There is less time to make a decision.

We see a similar condition, albeit scaled down, w/ helo transition guys coming back to the T-34. It's more of an issue w/ the current lower-time HACs that are coming from the fleet now compared to more experienced, senior guys, but there's definitely a phase of learning to pre-plan better for the approach. And it only gets harder with the SA sponge sitting up front.

 

[FLYTPAY]

And it only gets harder with the SA sponge sitting up front.

I used to say that when I was an NFO

 

[squeeze]

I used to say that when I was an NFO

Funny how much SA you can have when you can sit on your hands and watch the world go by. :icon_tong

 

[kmac]

Having flown through an area with a convective sigmet and severe thunderstorm warning this weekend, it definitely would have made me a bit more comfortable.

Slight threadjack, but are you sure you want to be admitting this on a public forum?

 

[BACONATOR]

Slight threadjack, but are you sure you want to be admitting this on a public forum?

We didn't really. I was exaggerating (IE: I only menant we passed through the general AREA that had a previously forecast sigmet/TS warning). It passed through the area before we got there. We were twiddling our thumbs waiting on the ground for it to pass. But we definitely were in the soup.

 

[HokiePilot]

a Harrier hovers at NLT 50', while most helos are more like 5'.

That make me think of a somewhat random question. Do Harriers benefit from ground effect in the hover?

Helo's get some benefit when the rotor is within within one rotor diameter of the ground, but do you guys also? My guess is no because the exhaust is only on the order of inches wide.

 

[Harrier Dude]

That make me think of a somewhat random question. Do Harriers benefit from ground effect in the hover?

Helo's get some benefit when the rotor is within within one rotor diameter of the ground, but do you guys also? My guess is no because the exhaust is only on the order of inches wide.

No. We suffer from it, in fact. The lower we get to the ground, the more of our hot gasses we reingest and the higher our JPT goes. It's kind of like if ambient temps suddenly rose by 100 deg C right around your aircraft. Performance suffers.

Aside from absolute altitude (i.e.MSL differences) hover height is immaterial to the extent that we can avoid reingestion.

By the way, our exhaust plume is HUGE. Well larger than "inches wide". Aerodynamicly, though, it has little effect.

 

[Flash]

Funny how much SA you can have when you can sit on your hands and watch the world go by. :icon_tong

Sit on our hands?! Are you kidding me? We have to keep them free to hold the banana and slap the monkey.......so to speak.