NEWS If War Comes, Will the U.S. Navy Be Prepared?

[nodropinufaka]

We agree here. There is a difference between chugging home the next morning and getting riled up at the gate and blazing back from the bar at 0300 and crashing into the gate…

Had one of my sailors do exactly that. Get drunk and come back thru the gate in the middle of the night. Didn’t crash into it but got pulled out by the guards and blew a .21.

Obviously in that situation you should be in trouble.

 

[SELRES_AMDO]

That's the defacto Navy policy.

Do you agree with the defacto Navy policy?

Personally I think it is dumb. People should be given second chances to prove they can overcome adversity. Obviously there's a difference between an ENS getting a DUI and a CAPT getting one.

I also see so many senior Officers drinking beers while golfing, boating, or at the O club then driving home. Then they pretend like they have never done such a thing when someone else gets popped for a DUI. Total hypocrites.

 

[nodropinufaka]

Possession of a schedule I controlled substance is a misdemeanor, as are some lesser, 4th degree sexual assaults in many jurisdictions.

Cocaine is a schedule II drug.

and in a majority of the states possession is a felony.

There are very few that it isn’t.

it’s prevalent everywhere and the felony charges don’t seem to stop people from using it but that’s a diff discussion altogether

 

[Brett327]

Do you agree with the defacto Navy policy?

Personally I think it is dumb. People should be given second chances to prove they can overcome adversity. Obviously there's a difference between an ENS getting a DUI and a CAPT getting one.

I also see so many senior Officers drinking beers while golfing, boating, or at the O club then driving home. Then they pretend like they have never done such a thing when someone else gets popped for a DUI. Total hypocrites.

I don't disagree that there could be room for some nuance, but that's not how the law sees it, nor is it the DoN policy. The real thrust of my point is that using DUI as an example of zero-defect mindset gone awry is a horrible position from which to argue that point. There are much better examples, as have been discussed in this thread.

Having a beer then driving home isn't a DUI. Having several beers over the course of an afternoon of golfing isn't a DUI. Among your many talents, I presume that measuring someone's BAC with your eyes is not one of them. Have you ever been to a DUI mast for a Sailor? Have you ever discussed with an officer with Art 15 authority how they approach a DUI case for one of their Sailors? Who are these senior officers you're referring to that drink and drive so frequently and blatantly? Are these people you actually know, or people you presume to exist due to some misplaced belief that "the man" is out there keeping you down by being "total hypocrites?"

I'm genuinely curious about your actual experience in this.

 

[Brett327]

Cocaine is a schedule II drug.

and in a majority of the states possession is a felony.

There are very few that it isn’t.

it’s prevalent everywhere and the felony charges don’t seem to stop people from using it but that’s a diff discussion altogether

Even better. It's still a misdemeanor for possession in most circumstances. I literally just looked this up.

 

[nodropinufaka]

I don't disagree that there could be room for some nuance, but that's not how the law sees it, nor is it the DoN policy. The real thrust of my point is that using DUI as an example of zero-defect mindset gone awry is a horrible position from which to argue that point. There are much better examples, as have been discussed in this thread.

Having a beer then driving home isn't a DUI. Having several beers over the course of an afternoon of golfing isn't a DUI. Among your many talents, I presume that measuring someone's BAC with your eyes is not one of them. Have you ever been to a DUI mast for a Sailor? Have you ever discussed with an officer with Art 15 authority how they approach a DUI case for one of their Sailors? Who are these senior officers you're referring to that drink and drive so frequently and blatantly? Are these people you actually know, or people you presume to exist due to some misplaced belief that "the man" is out there keeping you down by being "total hypocrites?"

I'm genuinely curious about your actual experience in this.

The way the law sees DUIs and the way the Navy sees DUIs are not equal.

In the Navy you can be taken to captains mast and your career ruined for a DUI based on the preponderance of evidence- don’t even need a BAC or a failed field sobriety test. The court case can be dismissed and you can still be taken and charged with NJP and found guilty based on one persons opinion on if you were under the influence. That isn’t fair in any way.

And that also is not the case as a civilian.

So to say the Law and the Navy see it similar is disingenuous.

 

[Pags]

The way the law sees DUIs and the way the Navy sees DUIs are not equal.

In the Navy you can be taken to captains mast and your career ruined for a DUI based on the preponderance of evidence- don’t even need a BAC or a failed field sobriety test. The court case can be dismissed and you can still be taken and charged with NJP and found guilty based on one persons opinion on if you were under the influence. That isn’t fair in any way.

And that also is not the case as a civilian.

So to say the Law and the Navy see it similar is disingenuous.

There's a difference between criminal, professional, and admin actions/punishments and how those impact the career of officers in whom special trust and confidence is placed. To include security clearances.

The navy as an employer is allowed to draw its own conclusions for breaking USN rules.

Not sure what DUIs have to do with winning the next war though.

 

[Notanaviator]

In this situation- wondering what action could be taken?

I’m not going to jump back in on the questions you’ve posed here or, more often, how you’ve posed them- think that horse has been beat pretty good. I’d offer a couple points here, just my two cents, take em or leave them.

- the links you’ve shared thus far are comprised of sources that may give you a sense of what has happened or what is happening (Wikipedia and the State Dept website). If you want a sense of what could happen or how things might shake out, you have to seek out things that will offer that perspective. A lot of bright and experienced folks on here have offered up some great ideas- I plan on checking out a few I hadn’t heard of that cover areas I’m not too familiar with, and am grateful for folks who’ve taken the time to share them.

- second, and if I’m overstepping here, I’m sorry, but hopefully you appreciate its coming from a good place, but an attitude appreciated here and most other places is an open mindedness, appreciation for the perspectives of others, especially when informed by direct experience, etc.

I haven’t seen any of that out of you thus far, and perhaps you feel like you haven’t gotten that courtesy in return. Fair enough. But if the first part of my completely unsolicited advice is to broaden your inputs, the second part of my completely unsolicited advice would be to check your ego and your assumptions when you’re taking on new viewpoints. I say that from my own academic background- best advice I ever got from any number of history professors was not to come to a conclusion and then seek out data or perspectives that support it; instead seek out the latter to inform the former. Turns out that’s pretty important outside academia, now more than ever.

/end completely unsolicited advice. To answer your question, a lot of folks have posted some good resources that offer up a spectrum of possible COAs and how they might play out.

 

[Python]

Do we know anyone who has actually gotten a FNAEB or FFPB for that? I always assumed it was a catch all for eliminating someone who won’t fly, like min FY flight time waivers.

Yes, I’ve seen it.

 

[Jim123]

Yes, I’ve seen it.

Same here.

There's always more to the story, but... yes.

 

[Brett327]

The way the law sees DUIs and the way the Navy sees DUIs are not equal.

In the Navy you can be taken to captains mast and your career ruined for a DUI based on the preponderance of evidence- don’t even need a BAC or a failed field sobriety test. The court case can be dismissed and you can still be taken and charged with NJP and found guilty based on one persons opinion on if you were under the influence. That isn’t fair in any way.

And that also is not the case as a civilian.

So to say the Law and the Navy see it similar is disingenuous.

If you think your CO isn’t being fair, you can request CM and enjoy the reasonable doubt standard of evidence. Problem solved.

FWIW, I’ve never seen a mast for DUI that didn’t have a BAC test result. I had a Sailor whose case was dismissed in court, and I dismissed the NJP due to lack of evidence. That’s how most COs will see it. Why would anyone want to mast a Sailor when there’s no evidence that an offense occurred?

 

[nittany03]

The way the law sees DUIs and the way the Navy sees DUIs are not equal.

In the Navy you can be taken to captains mast and your career ruined for a DUI based on the preponderance of evidence- don’t even need a BAC or a failed field sobriety test. The court case can be dismissed and you can still be taken and charged with NJP and found guilty based on one persons opinion on if you were under the influence. That isn’t fair in any way.

You can't be found guilty at NJP because it's not a court proceeding and doesn't give you a criminal record. It's the CO administratively punishing you to maintain good order and discipline. That's why it's called NON-JUDICIAL punishment.

FWIW, I’ve never seen a mast for DUI that didn’t have a BAC test result. I had a Sailor whose case was dismissed in court, and I dismissed the NJP due to lack of evidence. That’s how most COs will see it. Why would anyone want to mast a Sailor when there’s no evidence that an offense occurred?

I've seen it once. There were multiple eyewitnesses that the Sailor was beyond hammered, tried to pick a fight, and left the party after the instigatee defended himself with one punch and then walked away. Off to DRB for drunk/disorderly and assault. The DUI came out later when the Sailor spontaneously admitted at DRB to driving his truck away because he was worried it'd get messed with.

 

[Spekkio]

I don't disagree that there could be room for some nuance, but that's not how the law sees it, nor is it the DoN policy. The real thrust of my point is that using DUI as an example of zero-defect mindset gone awry is a horrible position from which to argue that point. There are much better examples, as have been discussed in this thread.

Asking for more leniency for DUIs is a terrible position in general. This isn't something that happens by accident. This happens because the person consumed alcohol to the point where he is above the legal limit, operated a motor vehicle while above said limit to put others' lives at risk, and operated the vehicle in a way that broke other laws or crashed into something to solicit interactions with law enforcement. It's easy to see that this is a result of a chain of bad decisions, and that it casts serious doubt on someone's decision-making abilities when he gets paid primarily to make decisions.

Removing zero defect would be more appropriate for officers like the CO of the USS Georgia who ran aground / had an allision in 2015, which was in large part a result of decisions made above his paygrade to ignore his concerns about the weather.

 

[nodropinufaka]

I understand the reasoning for NJP and don’t necessarily disagree with the reasoning for it.

Just kind of find it unfair for Captains to punish Sailors in instances of no evidence of wrongdoing.

And to @Spekkio point. I think it’s a totality of circumstances type of thing.

There is that old saying in criminal justice regarding crime and cops “you might beat the rap but you won’t beat the ride”

Meaning you may very well get off later but your life still going to be messed up and you’re still gonna be dealing with it.

All it takes is one cop having a bad day when you’re on the way home from golf and them wanting to abuse his power and charging you and your entire career and life ruined. You’ll be climbing an uphill battle. That’s why I think it should always be viewed differently.

Ive seen that exact scenario play out on someone and the guy didn’t even have his BAC taken or a field sobriety test and the stop was an invalid stop. But the Officer still took the guy to jail. Once the prosecutors got it they dropped it immediately for the stop being invalid and lack of evidence. The guys life was still a mess cause he had to deal with the Navy punishing him for it before it even went thru court

 

[Spekkio]

True but not to the scale China (or Germany/entire EU really, Russia, Japan, South Korea, or Canada) are. And we have a replacement for the Boomers (largest generation ever in the Millennials (second largest generation ever) plus we are an attractive location for immigration which China certainly isn't....We look much more like Sponge Bob vice the inverted pyramid that the other countries I mentioned look like:

We still don't look like a 'healthy' demographic distribution, and the 2030 projection is only in 8.5 years. It took China 40 years to see the full impact of reduced child births.