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Why are you Leaving?

lowflier03

lowflier03

So no $hit there I was
pilot
jtmedli said:
It's not hate. I love my job. I'm just saying the things that 200 other JOs in my community say every day. Kind of goes back to the whole CRM concept. Senior pilots (O4s and O5s) love to talk about how junior pilots "need to be more assertive and communicate more" but then their egos get hurt when the JO asks "why are we doing it this way?" or speaks up and offers a common sense alternative. Maybe we should change the way we do business, but that would involve the influential DHs and Front Offices to put the good of the community ahead of their careers which isn't going to happen.



Agreed. Very much so. Like I said, I believe our operational HSC squadrons should be the "major leagues" where we are ready for these things should they arise. The problem arises when you have a community that is slap FULL of people who have never done any of this stuff for real yet they will sit around and tell you all day long "how it's gonna go down when we're in the shit". I agree with the above posters that we should have tactics that are based on lessons learned from other services and, most importantly, common sense. But, like Flying Low was implying earlier, having 2000 page powerpoint briefs and outlandish weapons school check-rides that are being taught by people who have never done anything, yet think they know it all because they have a SWTI patch on, is a HUGE problem.

We need to get real and look at tactics from a realistic standpoint. It is FAR more realistic to put our pilots in an environment with limited resources (i.e. no powerpoint, no whiteboard, limited options for fuel, limited support etc...) and say, "In 3 or 4 days we've gotta put SOF team 'whoever' on a rooftop/back of a ship/whatever...get it done."
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If that's what the seawall WWS has gotten to, then it's fucking depressing. (I've always known the west coast was like this, but the east coast used to be grounded with some common sense.)
One thing I enjoyed about my time as the WTU/WWS and subsequent squadron WTI job was that I got to make mission planning more realistic. (At least that's the benefit of being FDNF) If the local EOD or NSWU had an event come up a few weeks out I would send the next check ride/lvl 3 guy over to help build the brief with them and learn how it really goes down. Similarly, if a last minute opportunity presented itself with Marines or whoever, I would hand the guy a whiteboard marker and tell him he had 3 hours to prep the important shit and leave out the fluff. I guess that's the benefit of actually working with real people instead of fairyland.
 
Gatordev

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
jtmedli said:
It's not hate. I love my job. I'm just saying the things that 200 other JOs in my community say every day. Kind of goes back to the whole CRM concept. Senior pilots (O4s and O5s) love to talk about how junior pilots "need to be more assertive and communicate more" but then their egos get hurt when the JO asks "why are we doing it this way?" or speaks up and offers a common sense alternative. Maybe we should change the way we do business, but that would involve the influential DHs and Front Offices to put the good of the community ahead of their careers which isn't going to happen.
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Just to make sure you didn't take it the wrong way, I'm completely with you. It's just interesting to hear you complain about all the same things (almost to the word) that LAMPS JOs were saying 10 years ago. Not a dig, whatsoever. HSM has just had the benefit of being a little more mature than the strike side of HSC, just like HSL had to grow into it and earn some rep, no matter how big or small (depending on the CVW).
 
pilot_man

pilot_man

Ex-Rhino driver
pilot
Steve Wilkins said:
That's a pretty simplistic and very narrow view of an aircraft carrier. There's a bit more to it than that.
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Nice discussion. What more then? Does the carrier fill the roll of Humanitarian assist at times? Sure. Is that what the carrier is for? Nope. Are there other tasks the carrier can adapt to and be used for? Yes. But a carrier without it's airwing is just a big target. The purpose of the airwing is striking things, both in the air and on the surface.

The point of all of this is, there are plenty of things that an aircraft carrier does, some of it self protection, some of it power projection, but an aircraft carrier without its airwing is a really big, useless DDG with no offensive and little defensive capability.

samguitar said:
The recent wars have confronted us with a narrow slice of the spectrum of naval conflict. The Navy's primary combat role is not overland strike, although we can fill a niche role as a quick reaction force or when land basing or flight routes are an issue, as they often are. In the first Gulf War, the AF did like 90% of the strike missions. Yes, the overland strike mission is important, but...

What no one else can do is control the oceans and conduct war at sea. It's only been 70 years since that happened last, which is not long in the balance of history. And in that short time, we have tended to lose sight of other scenarios for which we must always be ready. That's the hard part (and this is where I bring it back to the whole discussion of helo guys training for cool combat missions but never getting to do them): being ready for types of combat that aren't actually happening at the moment. That's our whole job during peace!

So what would you say "the point of a CVN is..." if you're meeting force on force in the middle of the ocean, and everyone's sweating about cruise missiles, subs, and shark attacks? In that case, the question of who is at the tip of the spear and who is supporting might be answered differently. My point is that in order to avoid getting short-sighted and myopic about our nation's naval needs, we must approach these questions with foresight, study, patience, and vigilance.
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Mostly good points but completely irrelevant to this discussion. You are right, the Navy's primary combat role is not overland strike, and we aren't talking about the Navy's role. We are talking about the roll of the CVN and more importantly it's embarked CVW. And at no point did I say the CVN's role was overland strike. If you go back you will see that I said in harm's way. That is both overland and in a WAS scenario.

To assume that the tip of the spear might shift is laughable. In your scenario the point of the CVN will be the ability to attack an enemy before the enemy can attack us. We do that with FW power projection. If you are referring to under the water stuff then there are people and machines that are way better at that than you.
 
RHINOWSO

RHINOWSO

"Yeah, we are going to need to see that one again"
None
No no no pilot_man, it's better to do drive by "I've got a secret" or "I don't know what you know" posts then evaporate... ;)

And everyone is the tip of the spear, just like everyone now has to eat hot wings, and hot wings are now mild wings, so to get the old hot wings you have to order insanovolcano wings to get good, hot wings.

One take away from hearing the RW and VP bubbas bitch about "tactics" is that even though it's AFU, the VFA community has tactics and training down in comparison - not perfect mind you and plenty of hinges & above let their sword get dull in hopes of climbing the corporate ladder, but a pilot / WSO who takes the time to try to be good has all the knowledge available to get there - now of course appropriate assets / widgets and flight time to get really good is a different story of course...
 
e6bflyer

e6bflyer

Used to Care
pilot
jarhead said:
Damn fellas (and ladies), the topic of this discussion is "why are you leaving"... The "Man" is laughing at y'all getting sidetracked for the last 10 pages of this thread...


I'm leaving because I hit 20 at the end of this year & I'm sick of the crap.
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Amen. My reason for leaving summed up in one sentence.
 
Beans

Beans

*1. Loins... GIRD
pilot
Perhaps a thread split is in order?

To address the "what is a CVN for..." discussion, isn't it there to carry FW aircraft to strike targets, in general? In WWII, those targets were mostly enemy ships (except when it was Japanese CVs striking land targets (also I am not a WWII authority)) and islands. If so, if/when we end up in a blue water war, those FW aircraft will be striking sea targets. As an HSL-turned-HSM pilot, I'd be happy to help make that happen. If we get "battle of the Pacific, and we're striking subsurface targets full-time, then we'd probably trade a VFA squadron for another 12 Romeos (or we'd just run away and let our own subsurface pros take over). I'd expect the HSM COs to be a little closer to CAG at that point.

I don't know how the HSM/HSC(cv) COs are interacting w/ CAGs on deployments, etc, but as for the possibility of one of them being CAG some day, the argument against that using the night Case III with strained nerves, etc, doesn't work for me. It's just as much of a mismatch for a FW CAG to be calling the shots for a $45M MH-60R (plus 3+ crew) struggling home w/ low whatever pressure as it is for a RW CAG to be calling the shots for a $60M Rhino (+1-2 crew) struggling to get home for whatever it is that makes jet sphincters tighten. Whatever the case, I'd expect the respective squadron leadership to be in the room too, and a good CAG would call on the advice as appropriate. I wouldn't expect a SWO admiral to override the CAG's decision/recommendation either way, and the same goes for CAG using his/her COs. Maybe I'm being idealist here. If we can't rely on higher leadership to select good leaders for us, then we're kind of f'ed no matter what happens, right?

When it comes to calling the shots and literally or figuratively leading the wing to make strikes (or whatever big movements the wing is doing), I think it's more nuanced than just "RW pilots can never hack it." HSM/C pilots on CVs who aren't taking the opportunity to get smart on what everyone else in the wing does are pigeon-holing themselves. We might not be there right now, because a generation of pilots have been in HSL and on the CSG sidelines, but once current HSM DHs are up for major command, maybe one will be there. Might be better than the worst RHINOWSO has seen.
 
RHINOWSO

RHINOWSO

"Yeah, we are going to need to see that one again"
None
Beans said:
Perhaps a thread split is in order?
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Probably a good call. Maybe then the attention seeking one liners will impart their knowledge upon us... ;)

Beans said:
Maybe I'm being idealist here. If we can't rely on higher leadership to select good leaders for us, then we're kind of f'ed no matter what happens, right?
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Correct and we are already there IMO, hence the reason I departed the pattern.

Beans said:
When it comes to calling the shots and literally or figuratively leading the wing to make strikes (or whatever big movements the wing is doing), I think it's more nuanced than just "RW pilots can never hack it." HSM/C pilots on CVs who aren't taking the opportunity to get smart on what everyone else in the wing does are pigeon-holing themselves. We might not be there right now, because a generation of pilots have been in HSL and on the CSG sidelines, but once current HSM DHs are up for major command, maybe one will be there. Might be better than the worst RHINOWSO has seen.
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We had a good HS skipper on my last deployment, we worked a lot with them doing CSAR and SOF stuff. He definitely had the skills to lead an airwing, but freely admitted to me that there was no was to cram 3000hrs of FW VFA experience or knowledge into his head to lead from the front, which concerned him. You can read all the books but you can't cram it all in your head. I've seen PXOs doing VS - VFA transitions try to get on the step Level II/III/IV and from a VFA standpoint, they were all failures.

Either way you'll need to sandwich before an after with VFA leadership as DCAG to make up for the shortfall in knowledge - I mean if you are left with an RW CAG talking to a SWO Battlegroup commander, you need someone in the room to answer VFA stuff - if your answer every time is (1) I'll get back to you or (2) incorrect answers, something is wrong.
 
H

hummerhole

Well-Known Member
None
RHINOWSO said:
Probably a good call. Maybe then the attention seeking one liners will impart their knowledge upon us... ;)

Correct and we are already there IMO, hence the reason I departed the pattern.

We had a good HS skipper on my last deployment, we worked a lot with them doing CSAR and SOF stuff. He definitely had the skills to lead an airwing, but freely admitted to me that there was no was to cram 3000hrs of FW VFA experience or knowledge into his head to lead from the front, which concerned him. You can read all the books but you can't cram it all in your head. I've seen PXOs doing VS - VFA transitions try to get on the step Level II/III/IV and from a VFA standpoint, they were all failures.

Either way you'll need to sandwich before an after with VFA leadership as DCAG to make up for the shortfall in knowledge - I mean if you are left with an RW CAG talking to a SWO Battlegroup commander, you need someone in the room to answer VFA stuff - if your answer every time is (1) I'll get back to you or (2) incorrect answers, something is wrong.
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Doesn't CAG have that anyway for other communities he knows less about ? He's got a rep for everything.

I don't understand the arguments raised for "who should be CAG". It should go to the best natural carrier aviator leader. And no it doesn't have to be a fighter guy. Nor to do we have to say "it's time for a helo guy" or "let's finally get another Hawkeye FO".

A CAG (shouldn't) have to be a micromanager. Just for an example, the VFA CAGs I've seen still ask questions about VFA stuff (for example, when was the last time you think they've sat and looked at a new TOPGUN manual?)

On the flip side, how much does a typical VFA CAG know (or care) about helos or Hawkeyes? We all know as Hawkeye guys that we WORK for the hornet guys. It's why we exist. In my opinion, if we do ever get new blood in there, the hornet needs will ALWAYS be met and considered (and yes, a CAG from a different community will have a TON of questions for the hornet rep) BUT the other communities needs and desires in the air wing may be more strongly considered instead of largely ignored.
 
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