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Who flies the Buckeye?
- Thread starter markvanes
- Start date
Jesus Christ. When are you guys going to quit going round and round on this one ???
The NA's (pilots) sign for the A/C .... they are in charge of the A/C and responsible for the safe and efficient transport of the A/C from point "A" to "B" and back again .... or from "A" to "A" if it is USS BOAT.
Sometimes you have an NFO mission commander (MC) .... the concept started when I was in ..... he/she/it is in "charge" of everything after the rendezvous and prosecuting the mission from post-point "A" rendezvous to "downtown" to back to the general area of "A". If the NA cannot do the deed, however, the MC-NFO is as useless as tits on the proverbial .... boar hog.
Single seat A/C do not need an NFO nor an NFO MC. Multi-place A/C might ..... you do your job in the scenario and setting you find yourself in .... you don't do the mental gynmastics about who's ego is involved nor the mental masturbation that many of you on this site do when trying to establish who has greater "hand" in the A/C. Appology to Seinfeld ..........
Most of you know that I have all the respect in the world for NFO's in the guise of A-6 B/N's .... but let's quit trying to figure out "who is in charge" .... it is an exercise in futility. Do your fvcking job ... know your A/C and its capabilities AND the mission .... respect your crew-mates and the rest will take care of itself.
The good guys (any seat) will get the job done .... the rest is crap. Believe it .....
BTW .... the title of this thread is "Who flys the Buckeye" .... the pilots do, that's who ....
The NA's (pilots) sign for the A/C .... they are in charge of the A/C and responsible for the safe and efficient transport of the A/C from point "A" to "B" and back again .... or from "A" to "A" if it is USS BOAT.
Sometimes you have an NFO mission commander (MC) .... the concept started when I was in ..... he/she/it is in "charge" of everything after the rendezvous and prosecuting the mission from post-point "A" rendezvous to "downtown" to back to the general area of "A". If the NA cannot do the deed, however, the MC-NFO is as useless as tits on the proverbial .... boar hog.
Single seat A/C do not need an NFO nor an NFO MC. Multi-place A/C might ..... you do your job in the scenario and setting you find yourself in .... you don't do the mental gynmastics about who's ego is involved nor the mental masturbation that many of you on this site do when trying to establish who has greater "hand" in the A/C. Appology to Seinfeld ..........
Most of you know that I have all the respect in the world for NFO's in the guise of A-6 B/N's .... but let's quit trying to figure out "who is in charge" .... it is an exercise in futility. Do your fvcking job ... know your A/C and its capabilities AND the mission .... respect your crew-mates and the rest will take care of itself.
The good guys (any seat) will get the job done .... the rest is crap. Believe it .....
BTW .... the title of this thread is "Who flys the Buckeye" .... the pilots do, that's who ....
A4sForever said:Jesus Christ. When are you guys going to quit going round and round on this one ???
BTW .... the title of this thread is "Who flys the Buckeye" .... the pilots do, that's who ....
Obviously. That is why the discussion morphed to a more useful debate on proposed future training of student NFOs. Nothing to do with who is in charge in the fleet. You get no arguement from me on the mission profile you outline above. I am surprised you didn't correctly zero in on the issue of the threadjack debate as you have so many times before. It is all about the money, no? Some guy thinks it will be cheaper to train the proposed way then with a larger aircraft and dedicated NFO instructors. Once again, quality takes a hit for $$$.
Well, I don't think I missed it .... I picked up on the (slight) discourse of $$$$ and its impact on training .... but as much of the aforementioned discussion is/was laden with phrases such as:
"stick monkeys"
"if a stick monkey could put his ego aside"
"nusemaiding the nuggets"
"egos which are too large"
"differences in communities"
"The only person that knows how to be a NFO and is qualified to impart that knowledge on to future NFOs in a NFO...."
Thennnnnnnnnnnnnnn ........ that doesn't sound too much like a discussion of $$$ and training priorities, does it??? It sounds like the age-old, same old sh!t, different chapter, different verse, same chorus ...... i.e., what morphed from "Who flies the Buckeye" .... or A-4, or Vigie, or A-6, or 747, or F-18, or S-3, or P-3 or, or, or ..... to the same-o, same-o discussion as we were having 30+ years ago when Mission Commanders were born --- some would say (not necessarily I) to assuage the "egos" of NFO's .....???
But I always thought (and still think) this is all kinda' useless .... you learn your seat and the mission to the greatest extent possible. If it includes crewmembers, they are part of that "greatest extent" possible, are they not? And some (or most?) of it is ALWAYS driven by egos, who is "in charge" and who is not, who's feelings are hurt, who's aren't and sometimes, who cares ???? Oh, and in addition, it's driven by $$$$, too.
I was just trying to keep it simple for the less esoterically-inclined amongst us .... ???? I'm really just a "meat and potatoes" kind of guy. Not too deep .... and if I REALLY didn't "get it" .... and remain clueless .... then sue me. Or, if you prefer, I'm buying.
Bring limes .....
By the way, when $$$ was more "available" (??) --- although you guys spend like drunken sailors now .... we (Aviators) were trained on the A-6 attack/nav system by B/N instructors in the "Tick-4" (TC-4C) .... we had to run full system attacks on the radar bombing range @ Spokane prior to graduating from the RAG. One of my bullseye patches came as a result of these exercises in Aviator frustration and futility --- but it pissed my B/N instructor off to no end as he had not got one "over there" as yet.
And we won't get into the number of times that I had to "run" both sides of the cockpit with a new B/N to "help" get the mission done. It is just part of the job --- no matter which seat you occupy.
"stick monkeys"
"if a stick monkey could put his ego aside"
"nusemaiding the nuggets"
"egos which are too large"
"differences in communities"
"The only person that knows how to be a NFO and is qualified to impart that knowledge on to future NFOs in a NFO...."
Thennnnnnnnnnnnnnn ........ that doesn't sound too much like a discussion of $$$ and training priorities, does it???
It sounds like the age-old, same old sh!t, different chapter, different verse, same chorus ...... i.e., what morphed from "Who flies the Buckeye" .... or A-4, or Vigie, or A-6, or 747, or F-18, or S-3, or P-3 or, or, or ..... to the same-o, same-o discussion as we were having 30+ years ago when Mission Commanders were born --- some would say (not necessarily I) to assuage the "egos" of NFO's .....???But I always thought (and still think) this is all kinda' useless .... you learn your seat and the mission to the greatest extent possible. If it includes crewmembers, they are part of that "greatest extent" possible, are they not? And some (or most?) of it is ALWAYS driven by egos, who is "in charge" and who is not, who's feelings are hurt, who's aren't and sometimes, who cares ???? Oh, and in addition, it's driven by $$$$, too.
I was just trying to keep it simple for the less esoterically-inclined amongst us .... ???? I'm really just a "meat and potatoes" kind of guy. Not too deep .... and if I REALLY didn't "get it" .... and remain clueless .... then sue me. Or, if you prefer, I'm buying.
Bring limes .....
By the way, when $$$ was more "available" (??) --- although you guys spend like drunken sailors now .... we (Aviators) were trained on the A-6 attack/nav system by B/N instructors in the "Tick-4" (TC-4C) .... we had to run full system attacks on the radar bombing range @ Spokane prior to graduating from the RAG. One of my bullseye patches came as a result of these exercises in Aviator frustration and futility --- but it pissed my B/N instructor off to no end as he had not got one "over there" as yet.
And we won't get into the number of times that I had to "run" both sides of the cockpit with a new B/N to "help" get the mission done. It is just part of the job --- no matter which seat you occupy.
A4sForever said:By the way, when $$$ was more "available" (??) --- although you guys spend like drunken sailors now .... we (Aviators) were trained on the A-6 attack/nav system by B/N instructors in the "Tick-4" (TC-4C) .... we had to run full system attacks on the radar bombing range @ Spokane prior to graduating from the RAG. One of my bullseye patches came as a result of these exercises in Aviator frustration and futility --- but it pissed my B/N instructor off to no end as he had not got one "over there" as yet.
Regardless of your misunderstanding of our debate, you managed to make the point best by your own experience. When money was available and wiser men made decisions, you, a pilot, got systems training like the BNs. If it was once thought to be worthwile for an A-6 pilot to be trained in a multi station aircraft with a dedicated NFO instructor, then why is it not even more worthwile for primary student NFOs to receive the same level of instruction? The answer is it is absolutely worthwhile. But some one believes it to be too expensive so a lessser option is proposed to save money and compromise readiness.
Well said, Wink .... and very smooth, too. One usually gets better results from the bear with honey rather than a stick.wink said:
I always did need and appreciated a good NFO with a level head to help me keep the blue side up ..... good job and ALOHA, Bruddah .....
Hey, Hornet pilot or Tomcat RIO... just give me a part of the SNFO syllabus where the pilot and the instructor are two different people. I got the most out of training in VT-86 when I just got to run the show with a pilot who had minimal SA and an instructor who played a very small (and mostly observational) part.
That is all.
That is all.