Who Drives an Aircraft Carrier?

[JWL]

If the CO of a carrier is an aviator, who actually drives the ship? Is the XO an aviator as well, or a SWO officer?

If SWO COs command destroyers and cruisers, why don't they command carriers as well?

Are he carrier CO and the CAG peers, or does the CAG report to the carrier CO?

Thanks.

 

[sickboy]

From what I’ve seen, it’s a 3rd class or below actually driving

 

[Brett327]

CO commands a carrier by US law, so a SWO will never be in that position. The XO is also an aviator, as is the Ops O, Navigator and most of the O5 leadership. You'll find the SWO flavored folks running the powerplant and other engineering related areas.

As for who drives the ship, it's not quite that simple. The person manipulating the rudder and lee helmsman are junior enlisted watchstanders. The ship is "driven" through verbal commands by the conning officer, usually the CO, but can be the OOD or CDO. There's an extensive qualification process for those positions.

CAG, the ship's CO and the DESRON CO are all peers, and competing with each other for FITREPs from the Strike Group Commander - a 1-star Admiral (or very junior 2-star).

 

[JWL]

CO commands a carrier by US law, so a SWO will never be in that position. The XO is also an aviator, as is the Ops O, Navigator and most of the O5 leadership. You'll find the SWO flavored folks running the powerplant and other engineering related areas.

As for who drives the ship, it's not quite that simple. The person manipulating the rudder and lee helmsman are junior enlisted watchstanders. The ship is "driven" through verbal commands by the conning officer, usually the CO, but can be the OOD or CDO. There's an extensive qualification process for those positions.

CAG, the ship's CO and the DESRON CO are all peers, and competing with each other for FITREPs from the Strike Group Commander - a 1-star Admiral (or very junior 2-star).

Thanks, Brett.

Does a career naval aviator learn enough about surface warfare material on the way to becoming a carrier xo and co to learn to give the "driving" commands?

I am curious as to how specialized or complicated surface warfare officer training can be if a naval aviator can essentially rise to the same position as a career SWO officer who commands a cruiser, for example. It appears that an aviator can do what a SWO officer does, but not the other way around.

 

[Pags]

Thanks, Brett.

Does a career naval aviator learn enough about surface warfare material on the way to becoming a carrier xo and co to learn to give the "driving" commands?

I am curious as to how specialized or complicated surface warfare officer training can be if a naval aviator can essentially rise to the same position as a career SWO officer who commands a cruiser, for example. It appears that an aviator can do what a SWO officer does, but not the other way around.

Driving a boat isn't that hard. Especially after having flown an airplane. It takes brand new unqualified ENS about a year to get their OOD qual. Aviators can get theirs faster because they already understand a lot of the core concepts of moving big heavy grey things around. The harder part is fighting a ship. A DDG and CG CO have more ship weapons at their disposal than a carrier does. The fighting power of the carrier is the CVW which CAG runs. A carrier CO isn't running the same type of SWO warfare sets that the a DDG or CG CO is so it's kind of apples to oranges.

 

[JWL]

Driving a boat isn't that hard. Especially after having flown an airplane. It takes brand new unqualified ENS about a year to get their OOD qual. Aviators can get theirs faster because they already understand a lot of the core concepts of moving big heavy grey things around. The harder part is fighting a ship. A DDG and CG CO have more ship weapons at their disposal than a carrier does. The fighting power of the carrier is the CVW which CAG runs. A carrier CO isn't running the same type of SWO warfare sets that the a DDG or CG CO is so it's kind of apples to oranges.

Got ya, Pags. Your response makes sense.

And, besides, carriers travel with other ships anyway, correct, such as DDG or CG?

But, if aviators learn to drive ships anyway, why don't also get the SWO pin along the way?

 

[Pags]

Got ya, Pags. Your response makes sense.

And, besides, carriers travel with other ships anyway, correct, such as DDG or CG?

But, if aviators learn to drive ships anyway, why don't also get the SWO pin along the way?

Because driving the boat (OOD qual) ≠ fighting the boat (SWO pin). Also because of rules.

 

[nittany03]

But, if aviators learn to drive ships anyway, why don't also get the SWO pin along the way?

I was told by folks senior to me that this used to be a thing that could happen, until the SWO community got butthurt about it and made it go away. Given Pags's comment, I have no idea to what extent aviator SWO pins were a legit thing or a scam that met the intent of the rules without the spirit. I mean, it's not like folks were changing designators after, but the whole thing was before my time, and I was too junior to understand the nuances last time I heard of it.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I was told by folks senior to me that this used to be a thing that could happen, until the SWO community got butthurt about it and made it go away. Given Pags's comment, I have no idea to what extent aviator SWO pins were a legit thing or a scam that met the intent of the rules without the spirit. I mean, it's not like folks were changing designators after, but the whole thing was before my time, and I was too junior to understand the nuances last time I heard of it.

I got my SWO pin on the TR in 1993. I had to meet the same requirements as the baby SWOs earning their pins and it was a massive amount of extra work and watch qualifications. While TR was in the yards, I went TAD to a Destroyer Squadron doing anti-drug ops in the Caribbean for many months so get some of the quals before I ran out of time in my tour (as TR wasn't at sea). In addition to the bridge stuff, I had to qualify at 4 or 5 different combat watch stations, a couple of engineering watch stations, small boat ops (launch, recovery, operating, etc.), UNREP to include the deck stations, damage control, all the major warfare area tactic, sea and anchor, admin stuff like 3M, and more that I've forgotten.

I could have done it all on TR but by the time I decided I wanted to do it, our yard schedule did not leave enough sea time so I went TAD. That was an eye opener.... Luckily I was a frocked LCDR and was basically assigned to the various ships' XOs for training with no other duties. I moved around between ships depending on what they were doing so I could hit all the wickets. It was a good deal in that respect because I spent all my time doing qualifications without any responsibility or other work.

It wasn't a scam or "SWO lite" for aviators. I was the first to do it on TR and I initially met a lot of resistance from the senior SWO (Reactor officer, post command surface nuke) but received a lot of support from the rest of the senior SWOs on board. The RO got relieved for cause and the new RO was very supportive. He was the one who arranged my TAD with his good friend the DESRON Commodore. I did my SWO board on TR (since TR CO was the one who had to approve my SWO pin) a couple of weeks prior to detaching for my next set of orders.

 

[AllAmerican75]

Got ya, Pags. Your response makes sense.

And, besides, carriers travel with other ships anyway, correct, such as DDG or CG?

But, if aviators learn to drive ships anyway, why don't also get the SWO pin along the way?

They used to be able to a long time ago. One of the old COs of GITMO had a SWO pin that he earned while he was on his disassociated sea tour (IIR he was a helo bubba). That was also when you could go to a carrier as a brand new SWO ensign. Neither of these are on place anymore due to the need to "elevate" the SWO pin for tactical competency and also because many ensigns were coming from carriers without the requisite knowledges to stand OOD (among other things) well.

EDIT: @nittany03, it was definitely a thing and was part SWO butthurt and part the desire to tie the pin to a designator for "professionalism." And, as always, @HAL Pilot has a great sea story.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I was told by folks senior to me that this used to be a thing that could happen, until the SWO community got butthurt about it and made it go away. Given Pags's comment, I have no idea to what extent aviator SWO pins were a legit thing or a scam that met the intent of the rules without the spirit. I mean, it's not like folks were changing designators after, but the whole thing was before my time, and I was too junior to understand the nuances last time I heard of it.

One of my last XO's when I was at sea had a SWO pin, offhand I don't remember the circumstances.

 

[Brett327]

To be fair, if some SWO showed up at a squadron, did some PQS and got a bunch of flight time, we wouldn’t dream of giving that person Pilot or NFO wings. So, butt hurt is probably a bit harsh. More like they realized what they were doing was stupid and realigned their qualification policies.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Is the XO an aviator as well, or a SWO officer?

Once upon a time - ok, about 1981 - one junior SWO was ready to get out of the Navy after an extremely shitty tour as boiler room officer on USS CV-59 Forrestal, but instead he obtained new reassuring statement from his detailer, another SWO, and wrote an article in which he offered the Navy to try to change the law and make carrier XO position be available to senior SWOs. Nothing has changed since, but first mentioned SWO is now retired ADM James Stavridis, former NATO supreme commander in Europe, the second mentioned SWO is now retired ADM Gary Roughead, a former CNO.

Of note: SWO can command USN big gator (LHA/D) which is a carrier by measure of any other navy. Moreover, I'm pretty sure that if this SWO in command of LHA/D is a nuke after his/her carrier RO tour, s/he probably would be the best possible CO for such a ship.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Moreover, I'm pretty sure that if this SWO in command of LHA/D is a nuke after his/her carrier RO tour, s/he probably would be the best possible CO for such a ship.

Why? The RO never saw the light of day as he never did anything other than reactor stuff. His job had nothing to do with flight ops or Flying stuff.

Aviators command CVNs because the ships exist for aviation. SWOs don’t have the experience base for blue water flight ops, pitching deck flight ops, whether to send the plane or the beach or try and bring it on board, etc. It’s about protecting billion dollar assets. For this ame reason you won’t see a VP or VQ aviator in command of a CVN even though legally they can do it.

While somewhat true for LHA/D, these ships are more multi roled so it’s a coin toss who is in command - Aviator or SWO. It used to be they were primarily Aviator commands based on the reasoning used for CVNs but the SWOs successfully argued the multi mission role.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Why?

Pretty sure that being SWO nuke, this officer had a lot of OOD time on a carrier long before RO tenure and had been in O-5 CruDes command shoes. Of course I'm far from argue with your experience but it seems that after 1983 when CAG surfaced to authority level equal to carrier 9222, it is not carrier CO who really "fights the boat" but CAG