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What We Say And How We Say It

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
Say again all after 'that'...you're breakin' up.:rolleyes:
*The new milder, gentler Bee...:p
BzB


Smiles. Always with the smiles.

This forum is a virtual ready room/wardroom.

I would last, at best, about 3 days in corporate America with the level of discourse, honesty, un-PC, sarcasm, and general assholery that is normal ops in JOPA-esque company.
 

BACONATOR

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Agree with the sentiments of the article, but the pendulum swings both ways. A bit off topic, but sort of in a similar vein of fixing issues and/or professional decorum and perceived sarcasm/attitude.

I've seen people go about things in a VERY wrong manner, but also .... speaking in VERY vague generalities... I've also seen someone try to address an issue(s), specifically to superiors, and was pigeon-holed as "having a bad attitude". There's being unprofessional and improperly handling minor issues. But there's also bringing up SERIOUS issues that need to be addressed, but if you are not towing the party line and ... possibly highlighting the fact that those who outrank you may be making bad decisions or fucking it away, you are a jerkoff, regardless of the merit of your points, and in spite of your contrived eggshell-walking.
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
... possibly highlighting the fact that those who outrank you may be making bad decisions or fucking it away, you are a jerkoff, regardless of the merit of your points, and in spite of your contrived eggshell-walking.

Since I don't know the specifics of "your friend's" story, this will be somewhat general...

In my experience, when things like this happen, generally, it's for one or more of the following reasons:
1) The "argument" that bad decisions were being made was poor. In short, they weren't supported sufficiently by procedure, publications etc...my gut feeling vs. your gut feeling...
2) The person making the argument was focusing on their own slice of a much larger pie.
3) The argument, despite not falling into one of the above pitfalls, was made in an inappropriate time, place, setting etc...Telling the OPSO the schedule is fucked up at the Friday AOM for example...

and finally, and this one is almost always present...
4) Not shutting up, saying "Yes sir" and moving on when your input has been heard, considered and disregarded. Fucking this away is what generally gets you labeled a jerkoff.

Just like with emergencies, there are damn few situations in this business which require "fast hands" and we know what those are. When I've thought that "the system" was wrong, I've always found it better to sit down, make sure I understand it and really think through my conflict before opening my suck hole...and when I do open it, to do it discreetly. Embarrassing someone won't help your point be heard either. After that, you've got to realize that sometimes things aren't going to go the way you think they should. You are at best, a middle level manager and sometimes you are just going to have to shut up and color. Don't have to like it...
 

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
Telling it how it is is the right answer...tact is not the same as avoiding a subject...while I am more of a "rip off the band-aid" guy, sometimes you gotta kiss the boo-boo first...but at the end of the day, you will have to stand for what is right, even if it isn't popular...damn the consequences.
Pickle
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
Telling it how it is is the right answer...tact is not the same as avoiding a subject...while I am more of a "rip off the band-aid" guy, sometimes you gotta kiss the boo-boo first...but at the end of the day, you will have to stand for what is right, even if it isn't popular...damn the consequences.
Pickle

I agree when it comes to shit that matters...not crashing airplanes, hurting people etc...If I didn't give that impression, my error. That being said, there are situations where significant injury/death/destruction aren't involved where the solution set isn't binary...for non-dorks, where there isn't just a right way and a wrong way. In my experience most of the friction in wardrooms/disgruntled JO's at debrief time...decided that one of these issues was worth going to the mat about. They decided that "their" solution was the "right" solution and wouldn't quit fighting.

SA is king guys. Knowing that you are in a "shades of grey/multiple solution" problem and being willing to accept a solution you see as sub-optimal, says as much about your leadership/follower-ship as recognizing that you are in a black and white situation and refusing to be pushed out of the "right".
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
That being said, I've seen guys other than myself go about things the right way, with global sa on the issue, and still get their balls crushed.

I'm well known to be a "dont even hint you want my input, for you will get it" guy, so o have a rep for not caring if I piss on peoples wheaties.

Out in the real world, it has not been a liability, because I have a damn good track record of being right, unfucking problems and producing results.

In the Navy, lots of times you get ignored because you are "only a LT/Level 3/etc"

Unlike the Navy, I can tell people "Fuck you, you are WRONG" and not be brought up on charges or have my career nuked.

Sent from my PH44100 using Tapatalk 2
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
However one chooses to view this topic, it's clear to me that some people know how to negotiate these issues, and others are more akin to a bull in a china shop.
 

LET73

Well-Known Member
We've all seen JOs make good points in the wrong forum. Continuously arguing with an O-6 at an all-hands call isn't going to win an O-3 many friends, and most JOs understand that, but in a forum like this one, some of us are at least nominally anonymous, and someone like me who is sarcastic in about 99% of my real-world interactions has to be careful with tone. Especially since I actually hate emoticons.
 

revan1013

Death by Snoo Snoo
pilot
Plain language is the way to go in a professional forum. It's not the most interesting way to communicate but trying to joke around or being sarcastic on the internet (or many other settings really) backfires too often, especially around type-A personalities. When everyone wants to get their two cents in, people tend to just get louder and more contentious, rather than listening to what someone else is trying to say.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Plain language is the way to go in a professional forum. It's not the most interesting way to communicate but trying to joke around or being sarcastic on the internet (or many other settings really) backfires too often, especially around type-A personalities. When everyone wants to get their two cents in, people tend to just get louder and more contentious, rather than listening to what someone else is trying to say.
That never happens around here.
 
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