What equipment is the marine rifleman assigned?

[Fly Navy]

Huh? Did you just threadjack your own thread?

LOL

 

[Enishi1983]

i hear barettas jam up real easily. that's why the cops, ie DC, don't use them...

(Drive by) my gun's jammed! oh s-! (BAM)

btw flynavy, what do you mean Afghanistan, what happened there? are you talking about the incident where there were 7 KIAs (SEAL, PR, Rangers)?

 

[Fly Navy]

Any firearm will jam easy if you let it gunk up and never clean it. Cops are famous for that. It has nothing to do with the with quality of Beretta.

What I meant by Afghanistan is that we engaged the enemy well beyond the 160m or so that the M-4 is really effective in with current M855. The mode of thinking was that we will never see long distance engagements anymore, but Afghanistan threw that idea out the window.

 

[jdfairman]

Actually, yeah the Beretta did have problems caused by its manufacturing. The follower spring in the magazine quickly loses its strength causing misfeeds and other malfunctions. Out at the range last year, we kept them clean as a whistle, and there were still misfeeds and stovepipes happening left and right.

 

[Fly Navy]

That's a problem in any firearm that sees a lot of use, but I do know the troops have complained about bad magazines. It's like the SAWs that have problems breaking. A GREAT weapon, but in typical post-Cold War fashion, we aren't replacing the worn parts, like in the Berettas. It will bite us in the butt bigtime one day.

 

[E5B]

Originally posted by Fly Navy
There is no such thing as knockdown power. It's a farse.

Finally someone who knows what they're talking about when it comes to ballistics/guns. Whenever I hear someone say "Knock-down power" or "Stopping power" I immediately know they have no idea what they're talking about.

 

[E5B]

Originally posted by jdfairman
Out at the range last year, we kept them clean as a whistle, and there were still misfeeds and stovepipes happening left and right.

Yeah, I was there with ya Fairman, and those pistols probably had several million rounds through them, which in most firearms will start to cause SOME kind of malfuntion.

 

[phrogdriver]

Are you saying that a .25, a 9mm, and a .45, all with ball ammo, will have the same percentage of 1 or 2 shot kills/incapacitation? Since we are constrained by ammo, shouldn't a part or weapon selection depend on "stopping pwr," or whatever you want to call it?

 

[E5B]

First of all, what do you mean by ".25" because it's not a 5.56? A 223, or 5.56mm has the bullet diameter of .244". You shoot a 9mm with a FMJ then you get a 9mm size hole in the victim, nothing there about "knocking it down, or stopping it". The FBI actually did extensive research on this and I had the pleasure of viewing it. Once you start getting into your soft, hollow points and ballistic tips then you can bring in "expansion" into the picture, but intial entry is still whatever bullet diameter is. Anyone with any amount of hunting experience knows that unless you have a direct head, spine or heart shot you won't knock it down. hmmmmm Stopping power.....I can see where you get your side of the argument but I'm still convinced otherwise. Sure, if you're pointing a loaded gun at something or someone then most likely your intentions are to "stop" it or ultimately kill it. Where do you get "power", maybe I'm looking at it all wrong. If you are shot by someone with an AK-47 then you'll have a .311" entry hole and exit hole, unless it hits bone which is a whole other can of worms. When you say stopping power, I think of "shot placement", because that is the deciding factor. Yeah you can shoot someone in the arm and they'll bleed out (maybe) or could die of lead poisoning if shot by a non FMJ. Anyway, I love talking guns and stuff, not saying anyone is wrong, just simply describing what my view on things is. This could be lumped in there with religion or politics, where no one will ever agree.

 

[jdfairman]

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I always thought... Bullets kill by hydrostatic shock (not necessarily penetration). A .45 (heavier bullet carrying more momentum) will create more hydrostatic shock on its intended recipient than the 9mm (lighter round) thus making it more efficient at turning the area around the path it takes through the human body into nothing but chunky marinara sauce.

 

[phrogdriver]

Then you throw in velocity--that energy has to go somewhere... mass times velocity squared equals energy... Mass is the size of the bullet and velocity is the speed at which it travels, so bigger is better and faster is better, to a point. That point is when the bullet goes out the other side and wastes energy.

By .25, I meant the pistol round, since we were talking pistols, using it as an ex. of a small, weak round. I'm just saying you can shoot someone repeatedly with a small cal rnd with little effect, while 1 .45 or 2 9mm shots in the torso will almost certainly kill someone without body armor. Al Quaida fanatic charging at you...and you have a weapon with 1 bullet of your choice. Do you want a .22 or a 9mm or a .45? Call it knockdown, stopping power, whatever, but that's what we're talking about.

 

[E5B]

Yeah, I was there at TBS for that "hydrostatic shock" speech and I'm not buying it. Chunky marinara sauce, I highly doubt it, and if either of the above mentioned bullets had that potential it would be the 9mm since it's moving at super-sonic speed. I've shot animals with my 270 which is moving more than 3 times that of a 45 and not quite the same bullet weight, and there was nothing but a clean hole through the animal. I've shot pigs with a 1911 from less than 50 ft and even with a hollow point it didn't turn the immediate penetration area into jello, it went halfway into the carcus, mushroomed and stopped, tearing flesh and whatever else. A couple times I've shot pigs or coyotes with a 1911 it'll graze off bone rather than penetrate due to it's large diameter and very slow speed.

If anyone is interested in Ballistics or different cartridges, I have the book Cartridges of the World written by Frank Barnes, I also use this to base my cartridge collection off of. Anyone else have any other suggestions for similar reading? I'm always open to new ideas.

 

[jdfairman]

I hope you were using the .45 to just finish the hog off, or maybe you're just a dare devil. If I were hunting hogs with a handgun, I'd have to go w/ the trusty Super Blackhawk chambered in .44 mag. I'm married, so spending money on a new .480 Ruger is currently out of the question. My real preference for the above named critter is a custom Marlin lever action chambered in .45-70. Its an oldie, but its a goodie. Can't beat big heavy chunks of lead for brush guns.
Of course for longer ranges, I've got the .270, .223 and others along with my personal favorite (God's gift to the world of flat shooting cartridges) the 7mm Rem Mag.
My take on things is that for close in work, a bigger ratio of weight/velocity. For longer range a smaller one.

 

[Fly Navy]

Originally posted by phrogdriver
Then you throw in velocity--that energy has to go somewhere... mass times velocity squared equals energy... Mass is the size of the bullet and velocity is the speed at which it travels, so bigger is better and faster is better, to a point. That point is when the bullet goes out the other side and wastes energy.

By .25, I meant the pistol round, since we were talking pistols, using it as an ex. of a small, weak round. I'm just saying you can shoot someone repeatedly with a small cal rnd with little effect, while 1 .45 or 2 9mm shots in the torso will almost certainly kill someone without body armor. Al Quaida fanatic charging at you...and you have a weapon with 1 bullet of your choice. Do you want a .22 or a 9mm or a .45? Call it knockdown, stopping power, whatever, but that's what we're talking about.

E5B has nailed everything I was going to say. You quote "percentage of one-shot stop". This has long been a very controversial idea. No pistol cartridge can be relied upon to "one-shot stop". My case in point: Soldiers in WWII survived shots from .30-06 and 8mm...and still went on fighting. E5B is completely correct in the idea of shot placement. There is only ONE location in the human body that will almost guarantee instant capacitation. Draw a triangle between your eyes, upper nose, and lower forehead. That's it. Everywhere else, you are playing a gamble. It all depends on mental state, individual strength, blah blah blah.

Hydrostatic shock does not really exist in handgun cartridges. They do not have enough energy to make that a big deal. Handgun bullets rely on weight and size to kill, i.e. penetration and expansion, as opposed to rifle bullets (in general). Hydrostatic shock does exist with rifle bullets, due to the sheer velocity involved. Remember, 1/2mv^2.

I would not want either a .22, a 9mm, or a .45. I would want a rifle. One of the famous rules of gunfights: never be confident going to a gunfight with just a handgun. But I will answer it regardless. I'd go with 9mm, for two purposes. If said badguy is wearing body armor, 9mm has a much greater chance of defeating it. My second reason, I can shoot 9mm much faster and more accurate than .45. Of course, to add my own twist, I get to use my SIG P226

 

[phrogdriver]

Everyone wants a rifle, but not everyone can carry one.

The ammo argument will go on forever. There are old-timers who still argue for the .45ACP. The fact that there is an argument at all says that there is a difference between rounds. As with anything, "results may vary." Some guys die with 1 shot, a PCP-crazed maniac may take 10, but I'll play the "percentages."