What equipment is the marine rifleman assigned?

[Fly Navy]

My point with wanting the rifle was to illustrate that I didn't have confidence in either round.

Here is some insight on the argument. During WWII, the US forces in Europe would complain that the .45 did not hold enough ammunition and that it was too heavy. The German forces would complain that the 9mm wasn't powerful enough. We have kind of a reverse argument today. The truth is, soldiers will bitch about anything you give them, because the grass is greener on the other side.

I will agree that in handguns, size does matter to a point. General rule of thumb is not to go below .380 (9mm Short) for self defense purposes. But in all reality, it's shot placement. If you can shoot a .45 the best, good. If you can shoot a .38 Special the best, good. You know the phrase, a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44 Magnum.

It is true that 9mm FMJ is rather anemic. However, if you look at the differences between 9mm JHP, .40 JHP, and .45 JHP, there is no difference that would even possibly matter, not with modern ammunition.

Practice, practice, practice. For my personal preference, I much more prefer my 15 rounds of 9mm over 7 rounds of .45. Oh screw that, my 30 rounds of 5.56mm and 7 rounds of 12 gauge is better

Here are some interesting tidbits for ya'll. The .22LR is responsible for the majority of gunshot deaths. The .25ACP is weaker than the .22LR.

 

[E5B]

Originally posted by jdfairman
I hope you were using the .45 to just finish the hog off, or maybe you're just a dare devil. If I were hunting hogs with a handgun, I'd

Nah, no dare devil. The ranch I worked on in West Tx while I was going to college had a huge hog and predator problem, and thinning both of them out was my job. I shot so many hogs with my both my 270's that I decided to make it a little more challanging. I'd sit with my back to a tree right next to a water hole and late evening the hogs would come to water. Yeah I have a Ruger Blackhawk in a 357, and that seemed to work too. I hear ya about the 45/70, I have a single shot that kills on one end and maims on the other!!! We don't have much use for a "brush gun" in west Tx like you do in Central Tx. I'm a firm beleiver in a 270. I also have a '06, 243, 223, 222, and 7.65x54mm. I've ran into many who live by the 7mm Rem Mag. I've never shot one but the ballistics on it look impressive. Actually, the new 7mm Winchester Short Mag (WSM) out performs any 7mm on the market, at half the cartridge length! The longest argument in history is still said to be the 270 vs the 30'06. I have both and I still have to go with the 270, I'm thinking about trading my '06 for a Thompson Center Encore pistol in a 45/70. Wouldn't that be a hoot to shoot.

FlyNavy, my Dad is a cop and the one bullet (cartridge) he fears most isn't the 454 casull, or the 357 mag, or the 50 AE, but the 22 Long rifle. It'll go through a vest more times than not. Also, it's said that a 22 LR is responsible for having the most deer kills, with a 30-30 a close second.

Anyone seen the ballistics on the new 223 and 243 WSSM's? Check them out on the Winchester web site.

 

[BigWorm]

The final velocity is equal to the initial velocity plus the acceleration multiplied by the time. Acceleration (average) equals the change in velocity over the time it took that change to occur. The final velocity squared is equal to the initial velocity squared plus twice the acceleration multiplied by the displacement. Meanwhile, the kinetic energy is equal to half the mass times the velocity squared. Ultimately, the sum of all the forces is equal to the mass times the acceleration. Didn’t you guys take physics? That makes no sense to me, Math for Marines says bigger is better! I’ll take my .44mag, yeah only six shots, but if I miss the sweet spot and hit him in the arm – does it count as stopping power when his whole arm comes off? Probably tough to shoot back with only one arm.
-Semper Fi

 

[Fly Navy]

And here is the folly of those that have been misguided. A .44 Magnum isn't going to take someone's arm off. I know you're probably being sarcastic, but I hear this kind of stuff far too much. I haven't seen many people that can handle .44 Magnum, it takes a lot of practice. It's also quite socially irresponsible to use a .44 Magnum as a defensive round, considering that massive overpenetration, even with a good JHP.

There are two schools of thoughts in pistols. Light and fast and heavy and slow. Bigger is not always better. I'd fear a .357 Magnum over a .45. Then again, I don't want to get shot, period Of course, there is the ideal situation of heavy and fast, i.e. the 10mm. That cartridge is quite a hoot. Ever shoot it?

 

[FLMarine]

The 9mm is ok, to be honest I would like to have the Glock 22 40. as a sidearm if I went into combat. That being said I carry a 1911A1 .45 loaded with 230 grain Hydroshok hollowpoints as my concealed weapon. I carry concealed just about everywhere I go (except when I go on base). The Berreta is a decent weapon, but as said before when used a lot they can wear down. When I was qualifiying with the M9 at TBS the damn trigger broke on it. Wasn't that is was a crappy weapon, just used and abused. Hollowpoints are usually better at killing than FMJ when compairing the two side by side. There are advantages and disadvantages to both Hollowpoints and FMJ, but because of the Geneva convention we only use FMJ (damn Geneva conention always getting in the way. lol, I'm just joking). I say move to the .40 or .45 Glock for our sidearm, but that will never happen.

 

[E5B]

The 40 is a hot round for sure. That and the 357 sig are two of the hottest pistol rounds yet. Now they've got that new 500 S&W round, no one is ever satisfied with size!

 

[Fly Navy]

Well, FMJs technically are better at killing because they usually create two exit wounds, they just act slower because they don't dump all the energy into the body like a JHP does, so the target has to bleed-out. Ahh the good old reliable 230 gr Hydrashok. I love the .40S&W as a cartridge, I have a Glock 23 chambered in it. Lots of fun to shoot, and it's getting really inexpensive lately. I have Winchester Ranger-T in both my pistols. In the SIG are some 127 gr +P+ and the .40 has 165 gr.

It's actually the Hague Convention that bans JHP from combat. Wanna know why Counter-Terrorist groups can use JHP on terrorists? Because terrorists aren't considered lawful combatants and are therefore not afforded the protections of the Hague or Geneva Conventions *big grin*.

I'd love to get a 357sig barrel for my Glock, but the ammo is so expensive!

E5B and FLMarine, do you both shoot up at the Pace shooting range?

 

[Fly Navy]

Originally posted by BigWorm
Didn’t you guys take physics? That makes no sense to me, Math for Marines says bigger is better!

You left out the actual important part. Conservation of Energy and Conservation of Momentum.

 

[BigWorm]

Originally posted by Fly Navy
[quoteYou left out the actual important part. Conservation of Energy and Conservation of Momentum.

Math for Marines say Ron Jeremy doesn’t conserve momentum or energy – then therefore bigger must be better. Well, at least until his fat ass runs out of cardio.

 

[vegita1220]

what the? I don't know guns but KE is definitely 1/2m(v)squared. In other words, increasing v will have a proportionally larger effect than increasing m.

But I've always thought rifle bullets did damage from the oscillation induced after it penetrated the body which tears the person apart as it exits.

And for pistols, I thought the 1911 was specifically made to put down machete wielding maniacs in the Phillipines who were charging at US soldiers.

And on fighting condition, I heard a while back about a drug crazed maniac who survived 3 shots to the chest region, and who only went down after eating a bullet right between the eyes. Makes sense to me.

 

[Fly Navy]

Originally posted by BigWorm
Math for Marines say Ron Jeremy doesn’t conserve momentum or energy – then therefore bigger must be better. Well, at least until his fat ass runs out of cardio.

LMFAO!!! That was awesome.

Rifle bullets do have a "shock wave" effect. That's the hydrostatic shock. This works on the principle that the body is mostly water. It only works with high-velocity projectiles, like rifle bullets (relative to rifle bullets, pistols aren't high-velocity). You'll hear the term "temporary cavity". That's what they mean.

The 1911 was never used in that capacity. The .45LC was. The military switched to .38 revolvers. .38 will do the job if you do yours, but back then, with blackpowder loads, it was quite anemic, like pathetically so. Switching back to .45LC helped the situation.

There is a famous Miami shootout, where an officer hit an advancing badguy with something like 12 COM shots...the guy kept coming and popped the officer in the head with a .22, killing him instantly. The badguy died...eventually.

Bullets are not magical beams of death. Much has to do with mental condition, as well as physical. Don't be fooled by Hollywood.

The 9mm vs .45 argument will go on forever. I try to avoid it, but I like you guys, so I got into it

. Just always remember that thousand of people have survived and continued to fight while wounded after taking hits with bullets much bigger and more powerful.

 

[FLMarine]

I'm down at corpus so I shoot at an indoor range right across the street where I live at. Yeah, the 9mm vs .45 argument will go on forever. I used to know a lot about ballistics but I'm rusty on it now. Most police departments I know of are switching to either .40 or .45 because they kill better. Bigworm got it right on the nose about the Marine math in which bigger is better,lol. All I know is the 1911 has worked very well for our military for around 80 years and .45 kills people dead. My next pistol purchase is going to be a Glock 27 for better concealed carry.

 

[kimphil]

Math for Marines say Ron Jeremy doesn’t conserve momentum or energy – then therefore bigger must be better. Well, at least until his fat ass runs out of cardio.

Please! I'm trying to eat breakfast!

 

[jdfairman]

Mainly MP's and Security Forces I think.