VAQ RAG CO relieved of duty...

[HuggyU2]

A shame. I met Murph at CoNA at NASNI in Feb. Great guy. The handful of Prowler guys that I know from Whidbey speak highly of him too.
I hope he beats the charge.

..., hell, call your CO...

In an incident around a year ago, and AF Wing Commander (O-6) was fired,... and one of the "bad" things he did was go pick up some of his drunk officers when they called. It was deemed inappropriate, based on his position as Wing Commander.

 

[KBayDog]

In an incident around a year ago, and AF Wing Commander (O-6) was fired,... and one of the "bad" things he did was go pick up some of his drunk officers when they called. It was deemed inappropriate, based on his position as Wing Commander.

Interesting.

The deal I have with my shop is that when their plan falls apart and they think they have no other options, CALL ME. I will come and pick them up any time, day or night, and bring them home. Nobody will know about it but me and the guys I picked up. There will be no reprisals, and, in fact, it will reflect highly upon them that they had the good judgment to not get behind the wheel. Haven't had anyone take me up on my offer, but they know it's available to them if they need it. (However, they know they have other options before it comes to that: DDs, crash pads, cabs, Arrive Alive, etc. I'm just giving them another avenue to avoid drinking and driving.)

If this is deemed inappropriate, so be it. I'd rather my Marines call me than get behind the wheel, putting themselves and others at risk...not to mention the career ramifications.

 

[Scoob]

In an incident around a year ago, and AF Wing Commander (O-6) was fired,... and one of the "bad" things he did was go pick up some of his drunk officers when they called. It was deemed inappropriate, based on his position as Wing Commander.

That may be the dumbest things I've heard (read) today. (keeping in mind the glaring issues with post #10)

 

[Brett327]

Like it or not, fair or unfair.......

The reality of the situation is this: take even one sip of an alcoholic beverage and get behind the wheel of any motorized transportation and you are risking your career.

Why people risk it all routinely when other options are available is beyond me.

Just don't do it. If you DO do it, don't bitch about the consequences when you eventually get caught. It's not like this guy was unaware of the policy/consequences.

How many sailors has he busted for this? Just curious.

+1

Brett

 

[Cabbage]

Yeah. And what if he beats the rap at both civil court, and Admirals Mast. He's still fucked.

I personally am sick of the USN treating an arrest/accusation as a conviction. As someone who has had their FITREP and career affected by this personally, it hits close to home and pisses me off. While there is technically a mechanism to fix an adverse FITREP after the fact... Not so much with getting porked for pending charges awaiting trial when cyclic FITREPs come around.

And this zero-defect mentality.. Is just going to get a bunch of pussys in charge who have never been anything than choir boys. Who you want to fly in combat with? The guy who has always made the "Sure to please the boss" decision, or the guy who was dancing on the bar in Krock as an ENS.

I'll take the bar dancing guy.

I'm with you, except for DUIs. Pretty cut and dry, not much room for arguement when you blow a BAC. Alot of money could be saved by getting rid of trials for DUI. All it creates is an industry of dirt-ball lawyers who use fancy language to get someone off for something they should be punished for.

 

[MasterBates]

Mostly agree. However, I was involved with a military DUI (passenger, not driver) where the driver "blew" a .12 BAC according to cops, and his blood was a .02.

And yes, he damn near got fried for it. If he was a CO and not a JO he would have been relieved. And he was innocent.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I'm with you, except for DUIs. Pretty cut and dry, not much room for argument when you blow a BAC. A lot of money could be saved by getting rid of trials for DUI. All it creates is an industry of dirt-ball lawyers who use fancy language to get someone off for something they should be punished for.

I disagree. The laws were written in response to lobbying from MADD and others, rather than a purely scientific basis. An alcoholic that knocks back a 12 pack a night may have a BAC of .10 and still be completely in control of his faculties. AKA - Not impaired. A 125lb woman can have one beer and be completely off her rocker. AKA - impaired. .08 is a pretty arbitrary number.

And the "fancy language" you refer to is generally pointing out things that already exist in the law (for example, in NC the law recognizes a +/- .02 error in the machine. Was the .08 he blew a .08 or a .06? Again, it's an arbitrary number. I believe that field sobriety tests and follow on interviews from law enforcement are a more accurate determination of impairment, provided they're done correctly.

Not everyone who gets arrested for DUI is impaired, or even guilty of a DUI. I had 3 beers in 4 hours. Then waited for an hour before I went out to buy a pack of cigarettes. I got pulled over for having a headlight out (that I was unaware of at the time) and blew a .09. My lawyer got the charges dismissed, because there were a ton of mitigating circumstances that led to me NOT being impaired. But I'm just a dirtball that hired a dirtball lawyer, so I don't need a trial.

Not to mention the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments and Coffin vs. United States pretty much makes your argument baseless. Innocent until PROVEN guilty is still the law of the land.

 

[ltedge46]

Plenty of sailors don't get separated for DUI's, we've had 3 in our squadron in the past 18 months who are still in the Navy. 2 E-3's and an E-5. 2 of them were convicted in civilian court within 48 hours of getting pulled over. For those 2 the Skipper appealed to the convening authority (next Flag in his Chain of Command) to take them to mast and separate but was denied because of the double jeopardy rule. He took the other to mast but only busted him, as a result he'll most likely hit high year tenure without a recommendation for retention and be separated anyway. Before I was in the squadron, about 2 and a half years ago, we had a LTJG convicted of a DUI and she is still in the Navy as well, although she was sent TAD to the wing while we went on deployment and then was transferred to another squadron after she beat the rap.

 

[HuggyU2]

I disagree. ...
Not to mention the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments and Coffin vs. United States pretty much makes your argument baseless. Innocent until PROVEN guilty is still the law of the land.

Post of the week.

 

[KBayDog]

Post of the week.

Now, if we could only get the military to buy into this...

 

[BACONATOR]

I disagree. The laws were written in response to lobbying from MADD and others, rather than a purely scientific basis. An alcoholic that knocks back a 12 pack a night may have a BAC of .10 and still be completely in control of his faculties. AKA - Not impaired. A 125lb woman can have one beer and be completely off her rocker. AKA - impaired. .08 is a pretty arbitrary number.

And the "fancy language" you refer to is generally pointing out things that already exist in the law (for example, in NC the law recognizes a +/- .02 error in the machine. Was the .08 he blew a .08 or a .06? Again, it's an arbitrary number. I believe that field sobriety tests and follow on interviews from law enforcement are a more accurate determination of impairment, provided they're done correctly.

Not everyone who gets arrested for DUI is impaired, or even guilty of a DUI. I had 3 beers in 4 hours. Then waited for an hour before I went out to buy a pack of cigarettes. I got pulled over for having a headlight out (that I was unaware of at the time) and blew a .09. My lawyer got the charges dismissed, because there were a ton of mitigating circumstances that led to me NOT being impaired. But I'm just a dirtball that hired a dirtball lawyer, so I don't need a trial.

Not to mention the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments and Coffin vs. United States pretty much makes your argument baseless. Innocent until PROVEN guilty is still the law of the land.

Absolutely agree. In general, people in this country have calibrated their moral compass off laws that are in place in this land. Prostitution, Abortion, Drug laws, DUI, gay marriage and many more.

When, in fact, many of those laws have tenuous legal standing to begin with. Many of those laws are a result of tenacious lobbies with an agenda (aren't pretty much all laws a result of that?). Some of the earliest drug laws were to remove hemp as a competitor to paper, and also racist agenda.

These days, the only reason MJ is illegal is enormous lobbies from Alcohol and Tobacco (both of which are FAR more dangerous) and other more "moral majority" type lobbies.

Abortion, prostitution, anti-gay marriage, and polygamy all result from christian religious lobbies (Why is religion dictating law in this country?). DUI from MADD like you said.

So while people automatically assume that these things are "wrong"... well, sometimes we need to take a look at where we got our morals from.

 

[PropAddict]

about 2 and a half years ago, we had a LTJG convicted of a DUI and she is still in the Navy as well, although she was sent TAD to the wing while we went on deployment and then was transferred to another squadron after she beat the rap.

Huh. We had a golden boy LT, instructor TACCO who was a few months from PCSing out of the command who wrapped his Bimmer around a telephone pole one night and blew over 0.08 (purportedly 0.12). He went TAD to the wing, apparently beat the wrap in court on some technicality or other and then got orders to be a WTI at the wing.

Guess it's not so rare of an occurrence after all.

Still chaps my ass, though.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Absolutely agree. In general, people in this country have calibrated their moral compass off laws that are in place in this land. Prostitution, Abortion, Drug laws, DUI, gay marriage and many more.

When, in fact, many of those laws have tenuous legal standing to begin with. Many of those laws are a result of tenacious lobbies with an agenda (aren't pretty much all laws a result of that?). Some of the earliest drug laws were to remove hemp as a competitor to paper, and also racist agenda.

These days, the only reason MJ is illegal is enormous lobbies from Alcohol and Tobacco (both of which are FAR more dangerous) and other more "moral majority" type lobbies.

Abortion, prostitution, anti-gay marriage, and polygamy all result from christian religious lobbies (Why is religion dictating law in this country?). DUI from MADD like you said.

So while people automatically assume that these things are "wrong"... well, sometimes we need to take a look at where we got our morals from.

Too many things wrong with this argument to list - ever heard of someone being pulled over for smoking too many cigarettes? Your post implies that cigs areare more dangerous to a driver than booze.... Should have left Phrogpilot's post stand on its own merits.

Bottom line is that when you get behind the wheel of a car and you've been drinking you put MY life (and those of any other drivers on the road) at risk. Does that mean that many of "us" haven't done it? No. What I'm saying is that .08 is the limit. It doesn't much matter if you agree with it or not - its the published law. Agree or not, it is what it is and you knew it when you had your first drink. You make a decision - you must be willing to accept the consequences. I say this as someone who is close with the subject of the OP.

So yes Otto, people have calibrated their moral compass off the laws of the land. What better suggestions do you have?

 

[Pugs]

Bottom line is that when you get behind the wheel of a car and you've been drinking texting, talking on a cell phone, fiddling with CD's or your iPod, looking at the trees and birds, lighting a cigar, rolling down your window, talking to your passenger, singing a tune, cracking your knuckles, sneezing/yawning, etc you put MY life (and those of any other drivers on the road) at risk.

Lots of ways to be a dangerous or distracted driver. Not to condone drunk driving in any way but the bar is pretty all over the place and to destroy a 20+ year career without due process is Un-American.

 

[KBayDog]

Lots of ways to be a dangerous or distracted driver. Not to condone drunk driving in any way but the bar is pretty all over the place and to destroy a 20+ year career without due process is Un-American.

No argument here. The problem is, DoD has a "Shoot first, ask questions later" mentality WRT DUI. Perhaps because DUI is 100% preventable...and comes with quantifiable 'evidence' if pulled over?

Since you mentioned the other distractions, does anyone known of anyone who has been relieved, NJPd, etc. for texting/talking/etc. while driving? What happens to the Marine who sideswipes me and rolls me down an embankment because he HAD to text his friends while driving (another 100% preventable action)? Is he handled the same way as someone who blows >.08?