Vance?

[ForTheBoys]

Hey guys, I’m finishing up at my fleet tour and it looks like I’ll be going to Vance later this year to be a T6 IP. Not my first choice of location, but stoked nonetheless.

I just wanted to get an idea of how it is living in Enid and the general culture and vibe of the place/people, and how the flying/job is. I couldn’t find any threads about this less than a decade old, and wanted to get the latest on it.

Thanks!

 

[SynixMan]

If you don't get much traction here, you could always cold call the unit (71st?) and ask the duty officer for a Navy POC. I don't think there are that many there and someone has to be the "senior Navy" type.

 

[ForTheBoys]

If you don't get much traction here, you could always cold call the unit (71st?) and ask the duty officer for a Navy POC. I don't think there are that many there and someone has to be the "senior Navy" type.

Thanks for the idea! I’ll do that if I’m not assigned a sponsor sometime soon. The “don’t know what I don’t know” portion of the pie is pretty big right now haha.

 

[Griz882]

Can’t report too much on Vance itself but I lived in Norman Oklahoma and spent a lot of time in Enid training the Army National Guard unit there. The town isn’t too terrible, not as nice as OKC but nicer (in my humble opinion) than Wichita Falls. Along the main N/S drag (81 as I recall) it is all shopping plazas and chain junk food places. I’m a history geek so I really enjoyed the Cherokee Strip Museum and Railroad Museum. I assume the base has every amenity you need but you’ll want to get out, Enid tries with some community fun stuff and used to have a solid BBQ festival called “Red Dirt.” The people are nice enough but you’ll want to make trips to OKC for a change or head south to the Wichita Mountain area (Mount Scott) to see the buffalo herd. Tickets to an OU football game aren’t impossible and OKC has a pro basketball team if that’s your thing. One final note…if you have a sweet tooth make sure to go to Katy's Pantry…great pie!

 

[jollygreen07]

I was an IP at Vance. DM inbound.

 

[zippy]

Worry about PIT before you get your heart set on going to Vance. Many have ended up as TRAWING staffers after washing out of PIT on their way to Enid America.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Worry about PIT before you get your heart set on going to Vance. Many have ended up as TRAWING staffers after washing out of PIT on their way to Enid America.

Don’t underestimate what zippy said. I can honestly say that I didn’t appreciate how the Navy does checkrides till I got into the AF. It’s not necessarily more difficult, it’s just treated differently. I find the AF to be much more formal at checkride time than I ever did in the Navy. Prepare accordingly and you’ll do fine.

 

[ForTheBoys]

Worry about PIT before you get your heart set on going to Vance. Many have ended up as TRAWING staffers after washing out of PIT on their way to Enid America.

Yeah I'm basically expecting it to be like flight school again and I'm not taking that casually at all. Have you heard any stories, and do you have an idea of the washout rate/frequency?

 

[PhrogLoop]

Yeah I'm basically expecting it to be like flight school again and I'm not taking that casually at all. Have you heard any stories, and do you have an idea of the washout rate/frequency?

When I went through, they took intense pride in stating that T-37/T-6 PIT had the second highest washout rate behind the F-15 syllabus. They never quoted the rate itself so there’s that. There was also some hate towards us “Maritime” IPs that was…interesting. One crusty A-10 PIT IP told me in a brief “I don’t think you (Navy helo pilots) belong here.” I crushed the syllabus and went back to thank him for the motivation. Totally worth it for me, I loved the flying and the relationships (even the Air Force IPs I flew with).

 

[ForTheBoys]

When I went through, they took intense pride in stating that T-37/T-6 PIT had the second highest washout rate behind the F-15 syllabus. They never quoted the rate itself so there’s that. There was also some hate towards us “Maritime” IPs that was…interesting. One crusty A-10 PIT IP told me in a brief “I don’t think you (Navy helo pilots) belong here.” I crushed the syllabus and went back to thank him for the motivation. Totally worth it for me, I loved the flying and the relationships (even the Air Force IPs I flew with).

Well that’s kinda daunting. Glad you left with a positive experience though. When did you go through it? I’m a navy helo guy myself so thanks for the heads up if the culture is still like that.

 

[HuggyU2]

ForTheBoys: do you have any fixed wing time since you got winged?
I would imagine the T-6 syllabus could be difficult if you didn't. Difficult... not insurmountable.

That said, T-6 PIT only washes out about 1-2 pilots per year lately. I confirmed that with a guy I know that was in the 559th until about a year ago.

As a former PIT IP, we were never looking to wash people out or proud of it. No one wants that. Yes, I'm sure there is the occasional story out there that will contradict what I have stated, about some horrible IP. However, we worked hard to train up new IP's for the training command. It wasn't a joke to us.

You will get tired of being graded on every sortie. But you fly a lot, and your briefings will be better. It will give you a good foundation for teaching your new 22 year old AF students at Vance. If that matters to you, you will have a good time overall.

 

[PhrogLoop]

Well that’s kinda daunting. Glad you left with a positive experience though. When did you go through it? I’m a navy helo guy myself so thanks for the heads up if the culture is still like that.

I have to hope that the culture has changed since 2003-6, especially with the number of us who have made it through since then. As long as you fully embrace “their way” of doing things, all the way down to the radio procedures guide, you’ll be fine. On one awesome flight (by the PIT IP’s standard) I said “base, with the gear” instead of “base, gear down.” No kidding, I got a downgrade on radio procedures for that flight. You can’t make this stuff up!

 

[ForTheBoys]

ForTheBoys: do you have any fixed wing time since you got winged?
I would imagine the T-6 syllabus could be difficult if you didn't. Difficult... not insurmountable.

That said, T-6 PIT only washes out about 1-2 pilots per year lately. I confirmed that with a guy I know that was in the 559th until about a year ago.

As a former PIT IP, we were never looking to wash people out or proud of it. No one wants that. Yes, I'm sure there is the occasional story out there that will contradict what I have stated, about some horrible IP. However, we worked hard to train up new IP's for the training command. It wasn't a joke to us.

You will get tired of being graded on every sortie. But you fly a lot, and your briefings will be better. It will give you a good foundation for teaching your new 22 year old AF students at Vance. If that matters to you, you will have a good time overall.

I don't :/ I found out earlier this month I'd be going to Vance, and I've been shopping around at some local flight schools to get my hands on a Piper/Cessna with a CFI and start recreationally flying on my own in the few months I have before I go to the PIT. Anything in particular rotary pilots struggle with that I should spend extra time with?

Also glad to hear about the washout rate. I'd imagine the "attrition is the mission" mindset isn't exactly in anyone's interest. I've wanted to get back in the T-6 as an instructor since I left as a student (assumed it would be an orange and white though), and there weren't many VT spots on the slate, so I'm just happy to be offered the opportunity.

Lastly, do you know any resources for me to get my hands on an updated Dash 1 and any other pertinent pubs? From my understanding, the AF pubs convention is very different from ours and I would love to get my hands on that stuff early so there's less of a culture shock. Thanks!

 

[Gatordev]

Anything in particular rotary pilots struggle with that I should spend extra time with?

Admittedly I wasn't a T-6 guy, but...

Every helo guy that came back through that I flew with at the FITU would try and kill us on the first approach to a landing. I would even brief it ahead of time, but it didn't matter (and I did the same thing when I initially came back through). It's pretty standard to want to flare for the landing at 50-100 feet because that's the sight picture you're used to, especially trying to slow down what I'm guessing you're flying now. For the most part, guys figure it out after the first flight.

The other major issue is just dealing with flying as a single-pilot at a much greater speed than a helicopter usually goes. While it's certainly not the same, one thing you can do is try and shoot approaches at Vh (or nearly so).

But at the end of the day, you're not the first one to do this, so don't sweat it too much. Enjoy the fixed-wing time.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Lastly, do you know any resources for me to get my hands on an updated Dash 1 and any other pertinent pubs? From my understanding, the AF pubs convention is very different from ours and I would love to get my hands on that stuff early so there's less of a culture shock. Thanks!

All the pubs should be available online via https://www.e-publishing.af.mil/

You will want to get ahold of the AFI, AFH, and AETCMAN 11-202 and 11-203 series - and how the flow of these docs work. It took me a while to fully understand the cascading hierarchy going into AF land. Basically there are high level regs for Training, Stan-Eval and Flight Ops from the AF writ large down to MAJCOM (AETC in your case) to the command level. There isn't "one" 3710 doc per se.

A good primer to start with is AFMAN/AFI 11-202 series - kind of like the top level OPNAV 3710 - good overview on how the AF flies airplanes

Flying Publications

AFMAN/AFI 11-202 series

https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3/publication/afman11-202v1/afman11-202v1.pdf

https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3/publication/afi11-202v2/afi11-202v2.pdf

https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3/publication/afman11-202v3/afman11-202v3.pdf

This is a lot to go through (especially the flying publications), but important as you now need to become familiar with flying the “air force” way. They’ve been working over the years to bring more commonality between Air Force guidance and that of the FAR/AIM however there are still differences that are important. ANd of course big differences from OPNAV 3710/NATOPS.

You can manually Navigate through here: https://www.e-publishing.af.mil/Product-Index/

I'm no expert - but after 18 months as a DAF flying GS and taking 3 check rides I am just now starting to "get it". Oh yeah and get ready for PEX - lol

Edit - since you are going to be a T-6 guy, an office mate former T-6 IP said I should include AETCMAN 11-248 https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/aetc/publication/aetcman11-248/aetcman11-248.pdf