Oh wow. That is a big deal. First FMS customer for both programs.
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V-22 Chosen to be the new COD
- Thread starter lowflier03
- Start date
Oh wow. That is a big deal. First FMS customer for both programs.
Great informative post!
Bringing up a bit of COD history, back in the pre-C-2 day each CVA had it's own C-1A assigned, flown & crewed by Ships Co. (tailhook/VP Pilots specially CarQual trained/certified to carry Pax by the VR-21 COD pros). In addition, extra COD support was also available when needed by the VR-21 Det in the op area.
Ships Co. Pilots (the COD SQUAD, a collateral duty), consisted of 8-10 Pilots at least half of which were certified Carrier Transport Command Pilot (CTCP). The remaining non-CTCP Pilots were 'in training for their qual and functioned as Co-Pilots.
Selection for the Squad while on boat tour, was a great collateral assignment, and made the tour much more bearable. the OinC was usually an O-5 DH "The CODfather", the rest of the Pilots were O-4/O3s from various Depts & CAG or Flag Staff.
My tour as a COD driver was on USS MIDWAY (CVA-41), as an O-4 OrdnanceO for sea trials/workups & the '71 combat WesrPac; and as an O-5 Weapons DH "CODfather" on the '72-'73 deployment (which was extended twice to participate in "Linebacker II", Nixon's Christmas pummeling of Hanoi by combined USN & USAF attacks, which ended the air war and freed our POWs. Nearly a year-long 'cruise'... the longest of the VN war.
Some of the pluses of the CODsquad:
1. Got to get off the boat for 2-3 days out of every 10.
2. Got to experience exotic countries, cities where the big steel canoe didn't ever go (back then).
3. Made Centurion on my 4th boat.
4. Got TAD $$$ to help defray liberty expenses, a rare occurrance on deployment (except of course, for our VP brethren)!
5. Guaranteed logging minimum monthly/quarterly flight time for pay, often scarce for Ships Co. aviators on extended deployment.
6. NIGHT C-1 CAROPS
WERE VERBOTEN!
Having COD duty took the 'suck' out of my boat tour!
It should be noted that although the C-2 Greyhound had been operational for several years prior to our '71 deployment. Just weeks before our March departure, the entire C-2 fleet was grounded for MAJOR propeller problems and remained hard down for several years. In a crash program, the C-1s were revived, one per ship. Our Trader Buno 146035, C/S "Schoolboy 000", was craned aboard at NAS Alameda the day before departure, the first Cod Squad fam'd/MLP'd with VR Det Cubi Pt. for one week after arrival, they day CarQual'd the entire squad in the 2 days enroute to Yankee Station. The first operational mail/cargo/pax run was made to DaNang first day on line, and the rest was history!
*Sorry 'bout the slight course change in this thread;; however, this is COD related, and Y'all have in the past, enjoyed bits of Navy Air history from my era... a half century ago, enjoy!
BzB
Bringing up a bit of COD history, back in the pre-C-2 day each CVA had it's own C-1A assigned, flown & crewed by Ships Co. (tailhook/VP Pilots specially CarQual trained/certified to carry Pax by the VR-21 COD pros). In addition, extra COD support was also available when needed by the VR-21 Det in the op area.
Ships Co. Pilots (the COD SQUAD, a collateral duty), consisted of 8-10 Pilots at least half of which were certified Carrier Transport Command Pilot (CTCP). The remaining non-CTCP Pilots were 'in training for their qual and functioned as Co-Pilots.
Selection for the Squad while on boat tour, was a great collateral assignment, and made the tour much more bearable. the OinC was usually an O-5 DH "The CODfather", the rest of the Pilots were O-4/O3s from various Depts & CAG or Flag Staff.
My tour as a COD driver was on USS MIDWAY (CVA-41), as an O-4 OrdnanceO for sea trials/workups & the '71 combat WesrPac; and as an O-5 Weapons DH "CODfather" on the '72-'73 deployment (which was extended twice to participate in "Linebacker II", Nixon's Christmas pummeling of Hanoi by combined USN & USAF attacks, which ended the air war and freed our POWs. Nearly a year-long 'cruise'... the longest of the VN war.
Some of the pluses of the CODsquad:
1. Got to get off the boat for 2-3 days out of every 10.
2. Got to experience exotic countries, cities where the big steel canoe didn't ever go (back then).
3. Made Centurion on my 4th boat.
4. Got TAD $$$ to help defray liberty expenses, a rare occurrance on deployment (except of course, for our VP brethren)!
5. Guaranteed logging minimum monthly/quarterly flight time for pay, often scarce for Ships Co. aviators on extended deployment.
6. NIGHT C-1 CAROPS
WERE VERBOTEN!Having COD duty took the 'suck' out of my boat tour!
It should be noted that although the C-2 Greyhound had been operational for several years prior to our '71 deployment. Just weeks before our March departure, the entire C-2 fleet was grounded for MAJOR propeller problems and remained hard down for several years. In a crash program, the C-1s were revived, one per ship. Our Trader Buno 146035, C/S "Schoolboy 000", was craned aboard at NAS Alameda the day before departure, the first Cod Squad fam'd/MLP'd with VR Det Cubi Pt. for one week after arrival, they day CarQual'd the entire squad in the 2 days enroute to Yankee Station. The first operational mail/cargo/pax run was made to DaNang first day on line, and the rest was history!
*Sorry 'bout the slight course change in this thread;; however, this is COD related, and Y'all have in the past, enjoyed bits of Navy Air history from my era... a half century ago, enjoy!
BzB
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mountainman
Member
As a COD guy, I' m disappointed to see this although the writing was on the wall for quite some time. Truly, I think that the folks who made this decision do not really appreciate the capabilities of the C-2 and the inherent limitations of the V-22 with regards to how business is currently done. Frankly, I think that this is going to a very painful transition as these shortcomings are realized. With that said, where do I send the paperwork for a Growler transition?
Okay, so what would your alternative solution be? As a COD guy, you know how long in the tooth the planes are getting. They can't build more; if they could, Grumman would be proposing that. SLEPing doesn't fix all the problems or add traps to the airframe life. A clean-sheet build would take a decade or more, at best, even assuming it didn't go into the behind sked/over budget/cancellation death spiral most aircraft acquisition programs have done lately. The C-3 looks good on paper, but it only exists on paper. There are no other CV-capable cargo aircraft on the shelf.
The part of your post I bolded is, I believe, the root of the problem. The CODsprey transition is going to be a big change for VRC, the CAG and the Boat in a lot of ways, but that's a lot different than "the airplane can't do the mission".
I'm sure the folks who made this decision do understand the limitations this will bring, but they also understand that the V-22 is less limiting than nothing.As a COD guy, I' m disappointed to see this although the writing was on the wall for quite some time. Truly, I think that the folks who made this decision do not really appreciate the capabilities of the C-2 and the inherent limitations of the V-22 with regards to how business is currently done. Frankly, I think that this is going to a very painful transition as these shortcomings are realized. With that said, where do I send the paperwork for a Growler transition?
At some point COD capability is a nice to have vice a need to have.
I definately think the days of villas in Bahrain and suites in Crete are gonna be over once the PlopterCOD comes into full fruition. It's more than capable of landing at night with cargo, and if it can get gas at an LHD/LPD/LSD/USNS ship, it probaly won't be as limited in range as the COD guys like to think it would be.As a COD guy, I' m disappointed to see this although the writing was on the wall for quite some time. Truly, I think that the folks who made this decision do not really appreciate the capabilities of the C-2 and the inherent limitations of the V-22 with regards to how business is currently done. Frankly, I think that this is going to a very painful transition as these shortcomings are realized. With that said, where do I send the paperwork for a Growler transition?
As a matter of opinion, I think once it's integrated, it will open up some options for the airwing as opposed to crushing its abilities.
In fact, once they figure out the shorter range problem (which isn't a huge problem) I think the PlopterCOD actually opens up some capabilities.
Especially SOF support
What are the limitations that we keep hearing about? Range? Capacity? Footprint while on the deck?
If the range is going to limit when the CVN can receive hits then that might be an issue but I'm pretty sure they will figure out a way to make it work. Does the Osprey carry as many DVs as a COD can? If it takes 3 Ospreys to do the job of 2 CODs then that might cause some issues too. I think getting the COD out of the CASE 1 pattern would be welcomed by all. Let them recover after the FW and before the PG hits and it quickly becomes the Handler's mess.
Now would I personally rather ride an old ass, held together by duct tape, tried and true FW plane out to the boat or the brand new, powered by magic helo plane? I don't know but I will say that the magic scares me a bit.
If the range is going to limit when the CVN can receive hits then that might be an issue but I'm pretty sure they will figure out a way to make it work. Does the Osprey carry as many DVs as a COD can? If it takes 3 Ospreys to do the job of 2 CODs then that might cause some issues too. I think getting the COD out of the CASE 1 pattern would be welcomed by all. Let them recover after the FW and before the PG hits and it quickly becomes the Handler's mess.
Now would I personally rather ride an old ass, held together by duct tape, tried and true FW plane out to the boat or the brand new, powered by magic helo plane? I don't know but I will say that the magic scares me a bit.
This option makes total sense to me, it's quick, accomplishes the mission at hand, and for quite a lower price than any other option. It can/will open other mission sets to the VRC community (if they so desire)...and quite possibly make the carrier battle group even more effective. It will be interesting to see where they pull the first group of transition guys from. If the do what the Marine Corps did (taking all types) it could make it more painful for guys who want to keep the traditional VRC role. I see this as a huge logistical leap and benefit for the navy, going direct to the source vice the hub and spoke logistical system will be a huge benefit....
Yeah, the overnights on shore are still probably going still to happen since I am going to assume the Boss would prefer to have the COD's off his boat clobering up as little space as possible. And it isn't like the C-2 isn't capable of spending overnight on the boat, they even tried it for a few years, but for good reason it isn't done anymore.
Especially SOF support
Yeah, just like the Navy helo guys do nowadays! Not.
Maybe @Pags will chime in here, but I'm pretty sure the folded Osprey has the same footprint as a folded -46. That's like a COD with no wings, probably smaller. The problem is once it's folded, it's gotta be towed around. That's gonna be the biggest difference for the handler, but I don't think it will be a show stopper or a reason to get rid of them every evening.
For those that haven't seen it...
For those that haven't seen it...
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It is still dead space that is taken up by a aircraft that does nothing for the air wing's mission, just like the COD now. Plus, it isn't like the C-2 can't fold its wings:
It is a larger footprint folded. We had the Osprey's on the Nassau for our deployment in place of the 46's. They ate up a lot of space on the LHA. So much in fact that we had to det our skids on the LPD. Now that was on an LHA which is smaller than the LHD.
I wasn't a big fan of the Osprey to our deployment. They were a great asset to have during HADR in Haiti. The speed and range compared to 60's paid off to make runs into the beach 100 plus miles away. But if one palm trees on the deck of a CV then stand by. That will kill your flight ops. Not to mention the crane (time and deck space) you need to do an engine swap. We had to use Tilly.
How many -22s on an Amphib? I would hope that CVN would only ever have to worry about ~2 at a time at most.
I know the -60 blade fold system is only as good as the maintainers adjusting it, and there is always a manual fold option. How does the -22 fold system compare? Is there a manual alternative? I would think not, considering the size and shape of the moving parts involved.
The engine change thing does suck. No way someone is gonna do that at night during flight ops on the CVN.
I know the -60 blade fold system is only as good as the maintainers adjusting it, and there is always a manual fold option. How does the -22 fold system compare? Is there a manual alternative? I would think not, considering the size and shape of the moving parts involved.
The engine change thing does suck. No way someone is gonna do that at night during flight ops on the CVN.