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USNA vs ROTC vs OCS
- Thread starter JWL
- Start date
Max the Mad Russian
Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
This isn't the 19th century where you need a title or influence to get a commission. Any kid, with no connections but with drive and demonstrated potential (grades, sports, leadership, etc), can apply and become a military officer in the US.No Gentlemen anymore?
Well, old good British-style strugle between Gentlemen and Tarpaulins. Yet USNA guys are Gentlemen trying to be Sailors; while Kings Point and (State) Maritime people getting commission in the Navy are Sailors trying to be Gentlemen
This is true beyond the tongue in cheek nature of the statement. I went to an All-Academy ball once and took my girlfriend at the time who had yet to have been to any military functions if I recall. The USMMA guys had similar uniforms as the USNA guys, but they looked like slobs, were pretty out of shape compared to us, and acted pretty inappropriately for a formal function (think Farva in Super Troopers... "OPEN BAR DUUUUDES!" slapping an O-6 on the back). Said girlfriend says "Who the hell are those guys and wtf is up with them? Do they go to school with you? They look and act like idiots!" I explained to her the inferior nature of the Dept. of Transportation...
I think that academy grads (and maybe this extends to grads of large ROTC programs) do have an advantage in that they are immersed in the Navy mindset (for better or worse) much earlier and to a much greater degree than OCS guys. And I think it is an advantage if your goal is to become an admiral.
From the time these kids are 17, getting that star is held up as the ultimate success. All their friends are working for the same thing. And while you can't be incompetent and become an admiral, the real discriminator (in my humble opinion) is the depth of willingness to eat whatever sh!t the Navy shovels onto your plate and then smile and ask for more. Academy guys have that advantage in spades.
From the time these kids are 17, getting that star is held up as the ultimate success. All their friends are working for the same thing. And while you can't be incompetent and become an admiral, the real discriminator (in my humble opinion) is the depth of willingness to eat whatever sh!t the Navy shovels onto your plate and then smile and ask for more. Academy guys have that advantage in spades.
I will say I really don't recall any indoctrination from USNA that the Star is the pinnacle of success. In fact, I'd be willing to bet the majority of "distinguished graduates" are people who excelled in civilian life. The military figures that are often idolized and taught about are mostly the same ones that we hold near and dear to our hearts as a service: John Paul Jones, Lawrence (multiple Lawrences actually), Nimitz, King, Halsey, McCain and Stockdale, (and other Vietnamese POWs who "returned with honor"), and Carl Brashear. I suspect the few that are really put on a pedestal that maybe aren't lionized or otherwise well known throughout the service are Wendy Lawrence, Charles Bolden, Ross Perot (and he is known mostly for his accomplishments as a Mid believe it or not and of course for his wealth creation and Presidential run), Roger Staubach, and Colonel Ripley who remained an active presence on the Yard when I was there. That was the first funeral I've been to of a true hero.
Max the Mad Russian
Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
You are right but USNA is something more than education and training and this surplus has a definite taste of aristocracy, at least in traditionally accepted preception. Being sown, this seed may keep Academy grad afloat in any way of life, career Navy or out anywhere, along this one gentleman's pattern of behaviour. It may seem strange for Americans, but this image of USNA is common for almost every officer of any other national navy. Almost the same expectation exists for Senior Military Colleges ROTC grads, with another clear scent of Dixie world, since five of six of these are located within old good South.
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Again, you are wrong about the actual fact. Perception is not reality. Quit training to make your false perception reality.
Most academy grads I knew in their initial tours wished they had attended regular colleges. There were the 10% that thought they were elite but no one paid attention to them but themselves. It wasn't until they were a tour or two and a few years older that they decided they appreciated their academy experience.
Most non-academy officers thought academy guys were idiots for giving up a normal college life and experience.
I never saw an academy grad treated differently than a non-academy officer in any way. Academy grads did not perform any better or any worse than a non-academy officer.
The Navy does not care and no one in the Navy cares.
I agree with @HAL Pilot . They're just normal people. But in uniforms. They don't get some special pass in life because they went to CanoeU. Once everyone becomes a LTJG it's impossible to tell commissioning source apart.
exNavyOffRec
Well-Known Member
Not sure if they would apply to other designators but for SWO-N the ones I served with who were USNA left at a much higher rate than those who went OCS, they talked about how their long term goals had changed since they were 18 where those who were from OCS had a few more years to figure out what they wanted for their future.
I don't think I had a single Reactor Officer that was from the USNA
Max the Mad Russian
Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
Ok, ok. Please tell me then for God's sake, what is the reason to still support nowadays and for predictable future these Service Academies, at least those "gentlemanish" USNA and USMA, whose average grad is eight times more expensive for taxpayers than average OCS guy???
Until you're at the bar and your table full of CanoeU grads start reminiscing about inside jokes from the Severn School for Wayward Youth and you're scratching your head trying to figure out what the hell they're talking about.
Max the Mad Russian
Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
Sign of different culture. Alfred Tayer Mahan, who graduated Annapolis by just three years instead of four, often motivated his classmates to look at West Point (where his father taught engineering) since in his opinion the ethos and culture of Cadets then were of much more integrity than those of Midns: he clearly appreciated "military" values over "nautical" or "naval" ones. I have to admit that in European opinion one and a half century since changed very little: for nowadays "gentleman" who is secretly missing a sense of noblity on this continent, the military leadership in nearly ancient way is still more important than any trade skills such as infantry doctrine, or aviation warfare, or shiphandling etc. That is why the gap between officers from Prussian-style military academies and other commissioning sources is still wide enough. Well, in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, all Scandinavian countries and Russia as well, very little percentage of officers come from "other sources". In Great Britain, essentially, too.
Yes United States differs, and it is of great interest, actually, for all the other world. Sometimes the opinion surfaces: United States still maintain Service Academies just to have the basics to compare and find what is "the wrong way of military education and training".
This is something that comes up at the fringes of discussion. The reality is they are partially relics, but WWII with such a high demand for officers and Vietnam where many schools got rid of their ROTC programs proved their worth at the time. They are ultimately reliable sources of officers who are indoctrinated in their services and can adjust the training and academics relatively quickly to match what the services need in the event of changing conflicts. Even during my time there with the peak of Iraq and Afghanistan surges going on, each year the number of Marine Officers and SEALs graduating was greater and greater. We had lectures about Middle Eastern culture and society. We stressed basic Land Nav and obstacle and endurance courses. Our Saturday morning training was often very physically demanding instead of focusing on celestial navigation or Rules of the Road at sea.
Focus less on the "gentleman" aspect of the Academies and more of what they are for the services: a more reliable source of officers than ROTC and one that can be molded with the direct influence of the service itself.
Max the Mad Russian
Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
Good answer, thanks a lot. I've missed the point that ROTC are not independent and their parental colleges may went pacifistic