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USNA Color Guard, Overly PC?

DukeAndrewJ

Divo without a division
Contributor
What the fuck is your point?
My point is simply that just because an institution is funded by tax-payers, that doesn't mean there should be an obligation to make sure it is stocked with some sort of equitable cross-section of minorities, forgoing a merit-based system.
 

Clux4

Banned
My point is simply that just because an institution is funded by tax-payers, that doesn't mean there should be an obligation to make sure it is stocked with some sort of equitable cross-section of minorities, forgoing a merit-based system.
No where in my post did I make any statement to indicate that minority applicants should be picked even if they are not meeting standards for entry.

And where did your Asian-American comment come from?
 

DukeAndrewJ

Divo without a division
Contributor
No where in my post did I make any statement to indicate that minority applicants should be picked even if they are not meeting standards for entry.

And where did your Asian-American comment come from?
You are right; you didn't say that minority applicants should be picked up without meeting standards - I didn't mean to imply you had said that. But I tend to think that all too often when we institute measures to include a a greater representation of minorities in particular schools or jobs, we do it at the cost tossing out more qualified applicants on the basis of race/gender or whatever happens to be the flavor of the day. In the end, we aren't doing anyone any favors.

And as for the Asian-Americans and prison comments, I was referring to your argument that tax-payer funded institutions should contain demographics representative of the tax payer base. Asian-Americans make up a much smaller percentage of the prison population than they do of the general population, so by your logic, we should start locking more up to make sure they are equally represented. It's only fair.
 

Clux4

Banned
Duke,
Service academies set their standards and it is not driven by the rigors of the institution. Though you may think that is the reasoning but it is not. They set these standards to thin-down the applicant pool. After all, these institutions are prestigious. When they lower the standards for those unqualified minorities that you think of, it does not mean those applicants are as dumb as a rock. So when people get angry because the standards were lowered for a group of people, it is not exactly as it is portrayed. It is more or less a moving target and they know this.

After all, most of those applicants that did not get into the service academies go on to ROTC and get their commission. Look at commissioning as the end-state and think of the service academies as a way to get there. They are not the only commissioning source out there.

How about sons and daughters of active/retired Generals and Admirals that end up at the academies. We know for sure that their grades were not fantastic but they still got in.
 

PropAddict

Now with even more awesome!
pilot
Contributor
Duke,
Service academies set their standards and it is not driven by the rigors of the institution.
The hell it's not.

Are some silly requirements added to thin it down? Sure. Maybe I didn't need 500 hours of community service, for instance.

HS GPA's, SATs, ACTs, however, are all predictors of academic performance and indicators of prior preparation level. Lowering those standards, well, it means you either have to relax the level of academic rigor in your classes or offer lower-tier classes. And compared to all the other places I've attended from state schools (UCONN), small private schools (UHART), and even big-name engineering schools (Cornell), Shipwreck Tech crammed way more material into a course, and at a better level of understanding. People need to come in prepared, and capable of working at that level; not with a sub-par baseline and a darker skintone.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
How about sons and daughters of active/retired Generals and Admirals that end up at the academies. We know for sure that their grades were not fantastic but they still got in.
Ummm, no. You're wrong on this one... My 3 rejection letters (with a Dad who was Class of '63, AD O-6, with friends of his (some with 2-3 stars) putting in the good word for me) proves you wrong.

As it turns out, that kind of stuff is actually viewed as a negative by the admissions board. Why? Because it doesn't indicate that the kid wants to be there, but that his father wants him to be there.
 

BACONATOR

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Ummm, no. You're wrong on this one... My 3 rejection letters (with a Dad who was Class of '63, AD O-6, with friends of his (some with 2-3 stars) putting in the good word for me) proves you wrong.

As it turns out, that kind of stuff is actually viewed as a negative by the admissions board. Why? Because it doesn't indicate that the kid wants to be there, but that his father wants him to be there.

Or maybe your credentials at the time were just, indeed, that shitty. :D

I keed!
 

Clux4

Banned
I am personally a big fan of the USNA. I will always admit I wish I went there. I had a TBS squad mate once tell me in private that part of the reason he entered the USNA was because of who his father knew. In his opinion, his grades were not fantastic. He also admitted that he did not think he was the only one with such unique advantage.
Maybe this was just an isolated occurrence but I strongly doubt it.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
I am personally a big fan of the USNA. I will always admit I wish I went there. I had a TBS squad mate once tell me in private that part of the reason he entered the USNA was because of who his father knew. In his opinion, his grades were not fantastic. He also admitted that he did not think he was the only one with such unique advantage.
Maybe this was just an isolated occurrence but I strongly doubt it.
I've sat in on an admissions board. The kid was blowing smoke up his own ass, or his father blew smoke up his ass. They consider everything, but they don't really give preferential treatment to kids of senior ranking officers...
 

Clux4

Banned
I've sat in on an admissions board. The kid was blowing smoke up his own ass, or his father blew smoke up his ass. They consider everything, but they don't really give preferential treatment to kids of senior ranking officers...
So how did you get to sit on an admission board? Did you go back to teach?
What is the real deal with the selection process. Are minorities getting a leg up?
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
So how did you get to sit on an admission board? Did you go back to teach?
What is the real deal with the selection process. Are minorities getting a leg up?
I didn't sit ON an admissions board, I was allowed (shortly before I graduated) to sit in the cheap seats and observe how they did it... Near as I could tell, no preferential treatment based on race, who your daddy was, etc... They looked at the record, and spent a lot of time trying to determine motivation for being there/applying (i.e. - if they were going to be successful). I saw an Admiral's son get shot down because they felt (through his personal statement) that he wasn't doing this because he really wanted to...
 

PropAddict

Now with even more awesome!
pilot
Contributor
I didn't sit ON an admissions board, I was allowed (shortly before I graduated) to sit in the cheap seats and observe how they did it...
As of 2007, they still allowed this. It was an interesting experience.

Was also cool to have them pull my application file and read the comments all the board members made on it.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
Was also cool to have them pull my application file and read the comments all the board members made on it.
My roommates and I did that as well. We were a couple weeks from graduating and as one roommate was reading his comments, he remarked "did ANYONE actually vote for me to be accepted? According to this, I shouldn't have gotten in. I guess I slipped through the cracks and showed them!"
 

DanMa1156

Land of the rising sun. Literally. There's no DST!
pilot
Contributor
So how did you get to sit on an admission board? Did you go back to teach?
What is the real deal with the selection process. Are minorities getting a leg up?
I've been doing what you might call an "internship" through one of the classes I'm taking here in the Admissions Office; specifically special outreach. I've gotta say my perspective has changed a lot on what's going on. In the past, yes, they admit, at times, some boards were giving underqualified minorities a leg up but there were also boards that convened that were strongly anti-minority.

Ok, so, how do they meet the goals of the SECNAV/CNO/Supe to increase diversity at USNA without lowering the standards as had been done? Increase recruitment. They go out to cities with high level technical high schools (think Brooklyn Technical High School) and seek the best from those places. We play football in cities and states that are typically underrepreseneted. We have STEM and Mini-STEM (yeah, we're recruiting 7th graders with this one), Summer Seminar still is around, Family of Schools, etc. Hell, even the USS Midway is being used as a USNA recruiting tool now with school projects and an overnight stay on board. So the idea is if you increase the recruiting pool, and specifically market to minorites, you'll have more of them applying in the first place and you'll naturally have a higher number of them who are qualified. In my class, 2010, we had ~12,000 applicants; this year they expect over 18,000. The numbers are increasing and the recruiting is working. They are picking some pretty damn well qualified people these days. Do people slip through the cracks? Definitely, nothing is perfect, but they have a larger applicant pool to pick from.

Ok, finally, how do they fight discrimination? They have the "whole person" index which is an algorithm that supposedly does NOT include race but computes an indexed score based on the attributes they are looking for in Mids. With a higher number of minorites applying, a higher number of them will make the cut... That makes the Admirals happy and keeps this place from lowering the standard.
 

DukeAndrewJ

Divo without a division
Contributor
I've been doing what you might call an "internship" through one of the classes I'm taking here in the Admissions Office; specifically special outreach. I've gotta say my perspective has changed a lot on what's going on. In the past, yes, they admit, at times, some boards were giving underqualified minorities a leg up but there were also boards that convened that were strongly anti-minority.

Ok, so, how do they meet the goals of the SECNAV/CNO/Supe to increase diversity at USNA without lowering the standards as had been done? Increase recruitment. They go out to cities with high level technical high schools (think Brooklyn Technical High School) and seek the best from those places. We play football in cities and states that are typically underrepreseneted. We have STEM and Mini-STEM (yeah, we're recruiting 7th graders with this one), Summer Seminar still is around, Family of Schools, etc. Hell, even the USS Midway is being used as a USNA recruiting tool now with school projects and an overnight stay on board. So the idea is if you increase the recruiting pool, and specifically market to minorites, you'll have more of them applying in the first place and you'll naturally have a higher number of them who are qualified. In my class, 2010, we had ~12,000 applicants; this year they expect over 18,000. The numbers are increasing and the recruiting is working. They are picking some pretty damn well qualified people these days. Do people slip through the cracks? Definitely, nothing is perfect, but they have a larger applicant pool to pick from.

Ok, finally, how do they fight discrimination? They have the "whole person" index which is an algorithm that supposedly does NOT include race but computes an indexed score based on the attributes they are looking for in Mids. With a higher number of minorites applying, a higher number of them will make the cut... That makes the Admirals happy and keeps this place from lowering the standard.
Wow - this sounds like they are really going about this in about the best possible way. I am quite impressed.
 
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