USAF Enlisted Pilots, The Right Stuff, Stolen Bikes, AIC, and SWO pipe dreams.

[Brett327]

I don't get why the SWO community doesn't trust an O-2 to oversee the process.

We've already established that an O2 SWO has spent the majority of their time learning how to be a Divo and honing their TPS report skills, not learning weapons system employment, tactics and ROE. It's not (necessarily) a dig on SWOs, just a difference in where the two communities focus their training. So, while your average single seat O2 aviator is still unlikely to be operating alone and unafraid in combat (though it does happen), that individual does ultimately own weapons release authority per the applicable ROE and is expected to employ accordingly in the realm of Strike Warfare, DCA, in defense of the ship, etc.

 

[RadicalDude]

Most Australian SWOs don’t have college degrees.

 

[BigRed389]

Also, I hate to revive this part of the thread since I’m getting in late on it, but I immediately question anyone who thinks their standard OS is an equal AIC than even the most junior Hawkeye mole. Wowzers. Someone hasn’t seen a workup cycle, or at least blacked out during it.

I promise you, that is not a commonly held opinion in the SWO community.

Disclaimer: azguy is an asshat for his killchain comment and this post is not defending or condoning it.

Anyway, what you just wrote is exactly my point. The general thesis of the argument is that it's just clicking a few buttons in the FCS to get a missile in the air, I don't get why the SWO community doesn't trust an O-2 to oversee the process. Taken to its conclusion, the USMC trusts E-3s to lead fire teams so why doesn't the Navy trust FCSN with launch authority? Must be because the Navy has a culture of distrust for its Sailors, right? This line of reasoning is equally ignorant to a lot of what azguy is posting, yet it is being used to argue that the SWO community is completely jacked up because they won't let JOs have launch authority for TLAMs. Strike is more complex than spinning up a missile and hitting launch, especially when casualties occur.

Yup. If someone can't understand why a ship (or sub) CO/TAO may want to be kept in the loop while a Strike mission is in progress, then they need to re-read the previous post about people not spouting off bullshit about systems and platforms they don't understand.

Maybe on paper those O3s have battery release authority but with top heavy decision making (e.g. call the CO if a surface contact within x yards), I would wager that there would be hesitation in that TAO’s actions. My money is on that TAO calling the CO before they flip the ship version of master arm to ‘on’. It is not anything to get upset about because I feel things are changing but change of this magnitude will be slow.

The few times it happened with real threats inbound last year, they didn't.

I do agree it is still probably something that could generally improve across the community.

I'm not talking about knowing the difference between what type of radar a Hornet has but far more basic stuff.

Like what?
Just exactly what level of knowledge about your community is falling short of your expectations?

 

[hscs]

The few times it happened with real threats inbound last year, they didn't.

I do agree it is still probably something that could generally improve across the community.

And unfortunately, they were second guessed by Monday morning QBs.

 

[BigRed389]

And unfortunately, they were second guessed by Monday morning QBs.

Didn't say the community was free of jerkwads.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I think some of the difference might be in the way we execute our particular roles in current conflicts. SWO dude thinks "strike", and then thinks TLAM, and by extension, "standoff weapons". For VFA, aside from some major pre-planned strike (which does happen now and again), this generally means CAS or SCAR or some muddled ground in between. The difference in "weapons release" authority, or really the responsibility that goes with it, is a bit different between the two communities I think. I won't pretend to know the ins-and-outs of what happens on a ship up to and including firing of a TLAM (I have a basic working knowledge of it at best), but I know that they aren't in a flight of 2 first cruise JO's, talking back and forth with a JTAC, amidst some level of battlefield confusion, trying to make sure they are targeting the right thing, a thing that may be moving and doing its best to make this task quite difficult. There are methods for doing this efficiently, but in the end, if you get it wrong, you may well have killed civilians or even friendlies. The decision of whether you are damn sure you are looking at the right thing is entirely on your shoulders in your own cockpit, as that FNG, even with a clearance to release from the JTAC, and there is nobody in a command position to effectively QA your decision. I think that is a difference.

 

[BigRed389]

I think some of the difference might be in the way we execute our particular roles in current conflicts. SWO dude thinks "strike", and then thinks TLAM, and by extension, "standoff weapons". For VFA, aside from some major pre-planned strike (which does happen now and again), this generally means CAS or SCAR or some muddled ground in between. The difference in "weapons release" authority, or really the responsibility that goes with it, is a bit different between the two communities I think. I won't pretend to know the ins-and-outs of what happens on a ship up to and including firing of a TLAM (I have a basic working knowledge of it at best), but I know that they aren't in a flight of 2 first cruise JO's, talking back and forth with a JTAC, amidst some level of battlefield confusion, trying to make sure they are targeting the right thing, a thing that may be moving and doing its best to make this task quite difficult. There are methods for doing this efficiently, but in the end, if you get it wrong, you may well have killed civilians or even friendlies. The decision of whether you are damn sure you are looking at the right thing is entirely on your shoulders in your own cockpit, as that FNG, even with a clearance to release from the JTAC, and there is nobody in a command position to effectively QA your decision. I think that is a difference.

No argument with any of that.

Not interested in a measuring contest between VFA (or any community) to anything in the SWO world.

Only trying to clear up what I see as misconceptions and misunderstandings.

 

[LFCFan]

And if the shooters aren't in position when they needs to be, if the launcher isn't operated properly, if the engagement plan isn't made properly, and if the necessary onboard comms paths aren't up, all the work the Strike cell did won't mean squat. There's plenty of shit to do to execute on the ship.

I never said there wasn't, I just said that most of it was based at the fleet TLAM shop. And that is coming directly from SWOs who have worked in TLAM afloat and ashore and know all of this better than I do.

They're talking about TLAM'ing stuff, because that's the SWO community's contribution when the "threat" to our nation is primarily armed with Toyota Hiluxes and RPGs. Why do you need to add "a grain of salt" when the guys who have to go to sea and deploy take a little pride in what they do?

As to the other comment, yes, we know...all standoff weapon trigger pullers are basically glorified truck drivers. Strike is the most brain dead, least dynamic mission conducted by CRUDES...and that's a good thing, because that means technology (Robomissile) is doing its job.

The "grain of salt" comment isn't meant as a put down or to detract from their important contributions, but rather to point out that one problem set is harder, and that most SWOs were never strike officers and very few of those were actually called on to do a strike in comparison to their VFA peers.

Is it really a shocker that a $2B asset where the CO is the senior officer onboard is operated different from a ~$100M one?
Or that the asset that can get tasked to sling 30 (or more) theater tasked cruise missiles launches in a single night might conduct ops differently from a platform that maxes out at what...2 or 4 SLAM-ER's or JSOWs?
Oh, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess the CO of a SSGN probably wants a vote on weapons release too.

For your first and third point: It isn't a shocker, but I don't see how it makes what folks on here are saying any less true.

To your second point, I think a better analogy would be a division of Rhinos being led by a JO that have several JDAM each on a planned strike. While both the CRUDES and VFA will get tasking from HHQ with JDPIs and whatnot, the VFA guys will still do all their own mission planning whereas the CRUDES guys do not. Consequently, if a target is missed, the CRUDES isn't put under a microscope (the fleet is), but the VFA guys are.

So what? The USN TAO doesn't have to ask Dad to shoot off CIWS, the MK45 gun, or any of the non-TLAM missiles sitting in that 96/128 cell missile magazine either.
To include SM-3 and SM-6 missiles. That SM-3 costs ~$13M, and the threat can target a population center with WMDs. That O-3 on watch better not fuck up that judgment call.

But will they ask Dad?

 

[azguy]

Wow - didn't realize I'd poked the beehive to this extent. @pilot_man I'd love to talk to you in a secure environment.

 

[BigRed389]

I never said there wasn't, I just said that most of it was based at the fleet TLAM shop. And that is coming directly from SWOs who have worked in TLAM afloat and ashore and know all of this better than I do.

The "grain of salt" comment isn't meant as a put down or to detract from their important contributions, but rather to point out that one problem set is harder, and that most SWOs were never strike officers and very few of those were actually called on to do a strike in comparison to their VFA peers.

To your second point, I think a better analogy would be a division of Rhinos being led by a JO that have several JDAM each on a planned strike. While both the CRUDES and VFA will get tasking from HHQ with JDPIs and whatnot, the VFA guys will still do all their own mission planning whereas the CRUDES guys do not. Consequently, if a target is missed, the CRUDES isn't put under a microscope (the fleet is), but the VFA guys are.

My point isn't that most of the planning effort is done onboard.
It's that planning is only a small part of the effort to get rounds on target.

But will they ask Dad?

There are a lot of ways I've seen people fuck that one up in training. Picking up the phone to ask permission isn't one of them.

 

[azguy]

I never said there wasn't, I just said that most of it was based at the fleet TLAM shop. And that is coming directly from SWOs who have worked in TLAM afloat and ashore and know all of this better than I do.



The "grain of salt" comment isn't meant as a put down or to detract from their important contributions, but rather to point out that one problem set is harder, and that most SWOs were never strike officers and very few of those were actually called on to do a strike in comparison to their VFA peers.



For your first and third point: It isn't a shocker, but I don't see how it makes what folks on here are saying any less true.

To your second point, I think a better analogy would be a division of Rhinos being led by a JO that have several JDAM each on a planned strike. While both the CRUDES and VFA will get tasking from HHQ with JDPIs and whatnot, the VFA guys will still do all their own mission planning whereas the CRUDES guys do not. Consequently, if a target is missed, the CRUDES isn't put under a microscope (the fleet is), but the VFA guys are.



But will they ask Dad?

There are URL-qualified, warfare-experienced officers discussing shit here. You're a clown. STFU. CRUDES don't do mission planning for a strike? Wrong.

You're out of you're element, bro.

 

[robav8r]

There are URL-qualified, warfare-experienced officers discussing shit here. You're a clown. STFU. CRUDES don't do mission planning for a strike? Wrong.

You're out of you're element, bro.

Continuing down the path of “winning friends and influencing people”, huh? YOU are the one that needs to STFU, or, as is probably the case, put the cocktail down and step away from the keyboard for awhile. Maybe wait until the new year until you open your scupper again and vomit all over AW. Regardless of your education, training and fleet experience, your credibility is shot here.

 

[azguy]

Continuing down the path of “winning friends and influencing people”, huh? YOU are the one that needs to STFU, or, as is probably the case, put the cocktail down and step away from the keyboard for awhile. Maybe wait until the new year until you open your scupper again and vomit all over AW. Regardless of your education, training and fleet experience, your credibility is shot here.

Who are you again?

I considered just fucking off this site. But, honestly, I learn a lot here. For every 30 of you that I piss off and make insecure of your career decisions, one person learns something; that's a scientific fact.

 

[robav8r]

Who are you again?

I considered just fucking off this site. But, honestly, I learn a lot here. For every 30 of you that I piss off and make insecure of your career decisions, one person learns something; that's a scientific fact.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, Merry Christmas Shipwreck

 

[hummerfo]

There are URL-qualified, warfare-experienced officers discussing shit here. You're a clown. STFU. CRUDES don't do mission planning for a strike? Wrong.

You're out of you're element, bro.

We (13xx) strive to value all educated opinions from any community, so don’t play the game of “you’re not URL, so STFU”. You’re the actual clown here.

@LFCFan was simply stating that there is an entire contingent of people whose job it is to mission plan for TLAM strikes (you do know that, right??), NOT that SWOs have nothing to do with planning for the use of TLAMs. Failed straw man, bro.