USAF Enlisted Pilots, The Right Stuff, Stolen Bikes, AIC, and SWO pipe dreams.

[RedFive]

I've seen an E5 treat an O-3 OIC with blatant disrespect, simply because the latter asked for some assistance with acquiring staterooms for aircrew.

OIC should have known to talk to the pork chop directly! I always go out of my way to befriend the Supply types, it's a win-win. But, yes, you're 100% right.

Did a crackpack a few years ago...ship's company went out of their way to avoid the mission. Anything they could do to avoid tasking, they'd do it. Got to the point where we'd have the SDO directly involved in SIPR chat so we could monitor ongoing events for ourselves. Coasties onboard followed suit and between the two DETs we ended up forcing the crew to play. They still had their moments...like the time we were sort of close to the equator, received extremely high pri tasking with friendly lives at risk in an undercover op.....annnd...crew decided to roger up, tell them we were headed north (toward the target) and instead made a dash south to cross the line before anyone knew. We were pissed and we missed the window of opportunity. Luckily nobody died and we were able to hit the same target a month later but....fuck. That and listening to surface community Sailors bitch about pulling into Panama...holy shit dude, would you rather steam around C5F and never get off the boat? Fucking kids these days!

 

[Gatordev]

Did a crackpack a few years ago...

we'd have the SDO directly involved

Good God. SDO wasn't even a thing for LAMPS when underway. Horrible. F-.

Sailors bitch about pulling into Panama...holy shit dude, would you rather steam around C5F and never get off the boat?

Or Colon. Shoot yourself. Or Puerto Quetzal...4 times in a row.

 

[RedFive]

Good God. SDO wasn't even a thing for LAMPS when underway. Horrible. F-.

We used the term SDO very loosely. Someone had to babysit the TAO/OOD to make sure the airborne crew didn't get fucked. Wish I was joking.

 

[BACONATOR]

I use the term SDO very loosely. Someone had to babysit the TAO/OOD to make sure the airborne crew didn't get fucked. Wish I was joking.

I have no daggers to throw, as I never had any issues with SDOs, but what exactly were the issues your SDOs had with TAOs? The only time I ever heard from an SDO was maybe calling me to ask a question about the air plan, or alert status (and it was usually me calling asking if an alert was set since no one seemed to want to tell us, but everyone would call and ask us). The only time I interacted with crews was when the hummer or helo crew came to ask "where are we, and where are we going"? And we'd usually talk about what each other needed and that was that. All cordial, no buddy-fucking or "baby-sitting" needed.

Perhaps the airwing perspective was conflating the roles of the OOD and TAO, which I wouldn't be surprised by. Then it makes sense when the boat goes somewhere completely different from the plan or does something stupid and while the TAO is constantly calling the bridge to politely ask (after ensuring the Captain/XO aren't driving) what the fuck we're doing, the airwing pilots are losing their minds and blaming any and all members of ships company, including the TAO who is the only real person they interact with.

Just curious.

 

[RedFive]

Well, to be clear, we're talking about a FFG not a CVN. But a prime example would be our first tasking. We were told to go find and recover contraband that had been thrown overboard after a P-3 purposefully spooked the bad guys a couple days earlier (we were too far away at the time to intercept directly). Roger that, good to go. Coast Guard did their magic and told us how far they think they had drifted, what direction, etc, and then we setup a HUGE search pattern, see Figure A. I don't remember exactly, but probably something like 60nm legs. We come back for gas, go out again and resume our search. After the second bag and still not finding shit, we give it to the next crew. I find my way to combat and talk to the TAO for the latest info and start asking how Mom's search has been going. He has one of the OSs pull up GCCS and display their track history, see Figure B. I nearly lost my shit. Needless to say, we later showed them the SAR TACAID and did our best to advise them on the best practices for the future.

Generally speaking, though, you know...standard small boy stuff. Finding thunderstorms and driving right into them. Taking 45 mins to get the winds in limits and set green deck, doing a full 360 with the ship in the process because we can't do MOBOARDs for shit. Taking swells from the beam rather than putting the bow right into them and not understanding why pitch/roll was fucked. The little things.

 

[BACONATOR]

Well, to be clear, we're talking about a FFG not a CVN. But a prime example would be our first tasking. We were told to go find and recover contraband that had been thrown overboard after a P-3 purposefully spooked the bad guys a couple days earlier (we were too far away at the time to intercept directly). Roger that, good to go. Coast Guard did their magic and told us how far they think they had drifted, what direction, etc, and then we setup a HUGE search pattern, see Figure A. I don't remember exactly, but probably something like 60nm legs. We come back for gas, go out again and resume our search. After the second bag and still not finding shit, we give it to the next crew. I find my way to combat and talk to the TAO for the latest info and start asking how Mom's search has been going. He has one of the OSs pull up GCCS and display their track history, see Figure B. I nearly lost my shit. Needless to say, we later showed them the SAR TACAID and did our best to advise them on the best practices for the future.

Generally speaking, though, you know...standard small boy stuff. Finding thunderstorms and driving right into them. Taking 45 mins to get the winds in limits and set green deck, doing a full 360 with the ship in the process because we can't do MOBOARDs for shit. Taking swells from the beam rather than putting the bow right into them and not understanding why pitch/roll was fucked. The little things.

Small boy ops... say no more. Haha!

 

[BigRed389]

And to echo what BigRed says, I wouldn't pat yourself on the back when it comes to ship procurement, with both the current CG and DDG fleets originating during the Cold War when the senior-most SWO leadership today was still JO's, if even out of college yet.

To be fair, there have also been good procurement decisions in recent years too. They're just less obvious because it's all stuff internal to the more visible platform hardware.
But likewise, there appears to be some "getting better" on the VFA side as well...but we don't need to talk about that.
That's what I meant by "luck" though...the platforms we had after the Cold War ended had a lot of growth/development potential, which is why we've been able to get them where they are today, with relatively minor modifications (in the modernized hulls in particular).

Having said that, our (IMO) biggest wins have come about when we improved the interoperability between Surface/Aviation to maximize value of advances in both communities.

I would bet they at least know the basics of what weapons and sensors were carried by both though, which is more than I can say for several post-command SWO's that I have dealt with.

OK, I guess that depends on how much you expect them to know.
I'd expect the average SWO to at a minimum know a Hornet has a radar, a variety pack of missiles, bombs, pods, and a gun. Typical career path, they're not going to pick up much more detailed knowledge than that unless they're looking on their own.

DH school will cram some book learning shit down their throat, but knowing who has an APG-73 vice 79 (which they get taught) is about as meaningful to teach a SWO as asking an aviator the difference between SPY-1A and SPY-1D(V)...without context, it's useless SWO board trivia for Stump the Chump games.
Probably would be more useful to teach them what the VFA guys has to deal with in the cockpit...but that would require aviators and SWOs in the Training world to talk to each other.

When you deal with the "dumbass" AEGIS TAO, understand they have to be up to speed on like 5 or 6 different warfare areas and the relevant C2 structure, TTPs, and platform Caps & Lims simultaneously, with significant limitations to their experience in many, if not all, warfare areas.
So it's not (always) because the guy or gal's a complete mouthbreathing idiot...it just takes time to get even a reasonably intelligent human being up to speed on that much shit. And the SWO reindeer games, routine ship shit, and undermanned enlisted ranks don't help them deal with that at all. So by the time they get reasonably competent at it, they're ready to transfer back to shore.
And with SWO's, often the SWO's actually AREN'T who you need to be talking to get shit done. The community relies heavily on LDO's/CWO's to do a lot of the legwork for the details.

 

[LFCFan]

This thread has been pretty entertaining but I can't figure out why everyone is chest-beating over the rank of the person who holds weapons release authority. There are E-2s who have weapons release authority. The reason that an O-5/O-6 has to decide whether to launch tomahawks is because of the international repercussions of doing so.

My chest-beating point was that, international repercussions or not, wasn't about weapons release authority per se but rather that even the process of getting a TLAM from launch to target is largely out of the hands of SWOs. Whenever they scream that "but we've been TLAMing stuff!" I take it with a grain of salt because I know what goes into making one of those strikes happen, and most of it isn't even on the ship. And I do think that there is a trust gap between an LTJG hornet pilot and the LTJG SWO strike officer when it comes to weapons release (on top of driving their expensive gray vehicle owned by the taxpayers), and that says something about how the two communities train, think, and work.

For comparison's sake, I'd imagine that a USAF bomber doesn't have to ask their skipper to shoot a standoff weapon unless he happens to be the mission commander.

The gnashing of teeth is about a potential narrowing of the capability gap and being able to protect our international interests without escalating conflict. Unfortunately some readers misconstrue that as no capability gap existing.

Sums it up nicely. I think the "man in the box" thing is lost on the folks who write for those publications.

 

[BigRed389]

My chest-beating point was that, international repercussions or not, wasn't about weapons release authority per se but rather that even the process of getting a TLAM from launch to target is largely out of the hands of SWOs.

And if the shooters aren't in position when they needs to be, if the launcher isn't operated properly, if the engagement plan isn't made properly, and if the necessary onboard comms paths aren't up, all the work the Strike cell did won't mean squat. There's plenty of shit to do to execute on the ship.

Whenever they scream that "but we've been TLAMing stuff!" I take it with a grain of salt because I know what goes into making one of those strikes happen, and most of it isn't even on the ship.

They're talking about TLAM'ing stuff, because that's the SWO community's contribution when the "threat" to our nation is primarily armed with Toyota Hiluxes and RPGs. Why do you need to add "a grain of salt" when the guys who have to go to sea and deploy take a little pride in what they do?

As to the other comment, yes, we know...all standoff weapon trigger pullers are basically glorified truck drivers. Strike is the most brain dead, least dynamic mission conducted by CRUDES...and that's a good thing, because that means technology (Robomissile) is doing its job.

And I do think that there is a trust gap between an LTJG hornet pilot and the LTJG SWO strike officer when it comes to weapons release (on top of driving their expensive gray vehicle owned by the taxpayers), and that says something about how the two communities train, think, and work.

Is it really a shocker that a $2B asset where the CO is the senior officer onboard is operated different from a ~$100M one?
Or that the asset that can get tasked to sling 30 (or more) theater tasked cruise missiles launches in a single night might conduct ops differently from a platform that maxes out at what...2 or 4 SLAM-ER's or JSOWs?
Oh, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess the CO of a SSGN probably wants a vote on weapons release too.

For comparison's sake, I'd imagine that a USAF bomber doesn't have to ask their skipper to shoot a standoff weapon unless he happens to be the mission commander.

So what? The USN TAO doesn't have to ask Dad to shoot off CIWS, the MK45 gun, or any of the non-TLAM missiles sitting in that 96/128 cell missile magazine either.
To include SM-3 and SM-6 missiles. That SM-3 costs ~$13M, and the threat can target a population center with WMDs. That O-3 on watch better not fuck up that judgment call.

 

[hscs]

So what? The USN TAO doesn't have to ask Dad to shoot off CIWS, the MK45 gun, or any of the non-TLAM missiles sitting in that 96/128 cell missile magazine either.
To include SM-3 and SM-6 missiles. That SM-3 costs ~$13M, and the threat can target a population center with WMDs. That O-3 on watch better not fuck up that judgment call.

Maybe on paper those O3s have battery release authority but with top heavy decision making (e.g. call the CO if a surface contact within x yards), I would wager that there would be hesitation in that TAO’s actions. My money is on that TAO calling the CO before they flip the ship version of master arm to ‘on’. It is not anything to get upset about because I feel things are changing but change of this magnitude will be slow.

 

[Hair Warrior]

I am confused about the “outsticked” argument. Can someone explain?

To me, in a conflict, the main threats to our aircraft aren’t adversary aircraft, and the main threats to our surface ships aren’t adversary surface ships. War isn’t symmetric. Even the Syrian Fitter shootdown was 4-on-1 basketball: way lopsided.

And if anyone in the Navy is “kill chain centric” we should include the Teams. Those guys knock doors one night, then use the intel to knock new doors the next night.

 

[hummerfo]

I am confused about the “outsticked” argument. Can someone explain?

To me, in a conflict, the main threats to our aircraft aren’t adversary aircraft, and the main threats to our surface ships aren’t adversary surface ships. War isn’t symmetric. Even the Syrian Fitter shootdown was 4-on-1 basketball: way lopsided.

And if anyone in the Navy is “kill chain centric” we should include the Teams. Those guys knock doors one night, then use the intel to knock new doors the next night.

Outsticked essentially means who can “touch” each other first. The weird SWO who was shitting on aviators in a weird “I could have been you” way argued that many of our adversaries “outstick” us. Partially true, partially fake news. Answer is, it depends.

Also, I hate to revive this part of the thread since I’m getting in late on it, but I immediately question anyone who thinks their standard OS is an equal AIC than even the most junior Hawkeye mole. Wowzers. Someone hasn’t seen a workup cycle, or at least blacked out during it.

 

[Flash]

I'd expect the average SWO to at a minimum know a Hornet has a radar, a variety pack of missiles, bombs, pods, and a gun....knowing who has an APG-73 vice 79 (which they get taught) is about as meaningful to teach a SWO as asking an aviator the difference between SPY-1A and SPY-1D(V)...without context, it's useless SWO board trivia for Stump the Chump games...

I'm not talking about knowing the difference between what type of radar a Hornet has but far more basic stuff. I've been impressed by some SWO's but scared by more than a few, my experience is that there is far more quality spread among SWO's than aviators.

 

[Jim123]

Best question I ever heard was one fielded by one of my Phrog driving friends (for all you young people, that was the helicopter with tandem rotors back in the day).

“If one of your engines quits, can you keep flying on the other rotor? Like when the ship does trail shaft?”

“No. It doesn’t work that way.”

Another goodie was during a translant, ship was driving straight along PIM one night, slightly rough weather but nothing too bad, we were getting a bunch of flight ops done including practice landings, and then the wind shifted a bunch with no change in mom’s course and speed.

OOD: “Yeah, we noticed the wind shift up here too... but I think it will come back in limits again.”

Me: Sigh. “It won’t. We just passed through a front.”



I just wanted to grow those stink bombs into this thread along with all the others...

Whoever signed off on SWOS in a box and shutting down SWO school deserves to get recalled to active duty and get his/her/their end of tour award(s) revoked for that one.

 

[Spekkio]

My chest-beating point was that, international repercussions or not, wasn't about weapons release authority per se but rather that even the process of getting a TLAM from launch to target is largely out of the hands of SWOs. Whenever they scream that "but we've been TLAMing stuff!" I take it with a grain of salt because I know what goes into making one of those strikes happen, and most of it isn't even on the ship. And I do think that there is a trust gap between an LTJG hornet pilot and the LTJG SWO strike officer when it comes to weapons release (on top of driving their expensive gray vehicle owned by the taxpayers), and that says something about how the two communities train, think, and work.

For comparison's sake, I'd imagine that a USAF bomber doesn't have to ask their skipper to shoot a standoff weapon unless he happens to be the mission commander.

Disclaimer: azguy is an asshat for his killchain comment and this post is not defending or condoning it.

Anyway, what you just wrote is exactly my point. The general thesis of the argument is that it's just clicking a few buttons in the FCS to get a missile in the air, I don't get why the SWO community doesn't trust an O-2 to oversee the process. Taken to its conclusion, the USMC trusts E-3s to lead fire teams so why doesn't the Navy trust FCSN with launch authority? Must be because the Navy has a culture of distrust for its Sailors, right? This line of reasoning is equally ignorant to a lot of what azguy is posting, yet it is being used to argue that the SWO community is completely jacked up because they won't let JOs have launch authority for TLAMs. Strike is more complex than spinning up a missile and hitting launch, especially when casualties occur.

A lot of the supposed autonomy on an O-2/O-3 having weapons release authority without the blessing of a CO somewhere in the process is being overblown, anyway.

The famous military leaders we study didn't go down in the history books for their ability to fly an aircraft, launch torpedoes, or even fire rifles as platoon leaders, anyway. Using the stage of one's career where you get to decide to launch ordinance as a metric for community penis measuring contests is ridiculous.