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USAF Enlisted Pilots, The Right Stuff, Stolen Bikes, AIC, and SWO pipe dreams.

D

Deleted member 24525

Guest
The article is about Air Force manning and the Air Force coming up with a solution to fix it.
The Navy’s symptoms might be different, but the personnel problems will remain and it will get worse before it gets better.
 

pilot_man

Ex-Rhino driver
pilot
Companies have to adapt to manning issues in the real world. Take a look at the airlines. Southwest dropped its requirement to have a 737 type rating...and then a year later dropped its requirements for 1000 turbine PIC.
Do you think they did that so they could “give everyone a trophy”??!!! Absolutely not. They did it because the airlines are facing a manning crisis.
To make that statement is completely ridiculous. It has nothing to do with giving everyone a trophy and everything to do with finding a solution to a pilot manning issue.
When people say stuff like “everyone gets a trophy” or “snowflake” etc then it prevents actual discussion into the issues and shuts people down without ever collaborating to find a solution.
Take the emotion out of it and realize that, with enough training and time, anyone can do our job. We are not special.

Like it has already been said, we don't have an accession problem, we have a retention problem. Two different pots of people. I have always been an advocate for keeping guys flying throughout their careers. As long as the airlines require min hours to get hired then the military will be a good place to get those hours and applicants will apply. Obviously, completely different from retention issues.

Weird, most of the Aussies have no college degree and they fly Rhino (and the chuck truck) real good. Must be something in the water...
Based on all the aussies I fly with every day. But what do I know, I just share an office with one, jackass.
Just asked him again—he said about 30% of their aircrew (officers) don’t have a college degree. Most of the ones I’ve worked with (~20) didn’t.
Point is, it works for them.

Retarded douche, "most" would be some number over 50%. If I was going to call someone a jackass over calling out my lie I would make sure that number was around 70-80%. Some dude in a PEP tour saying it is about 30% is real fucking exact. I also doubt you've worked with 20 RAAF guys and know all of their education credentials. Anyways, it doesn't fucking matter. We don't have an accession problem so limiting the requirements for applying would get us nowhere.

I never said any of this. Pretty sweet straw man, though.

I know you love thinking you are the straw man police. Really you should just go back to your Dungeons and Dragons and let the grown ups talk about the important stuff. If getting rid of the degree requirement could fix our retention issue, then what would you propose be the requirement for applying. A high school degree? Not even that? There has to be a minimum to apply correct?
 

RadicalDude

Social Justice Warlord
Like it has already been said, we don't have an accession problem, we have a retention problem. Two different pots of people. I have always been an advocate for keeping guys flying throughout their careers. As long as the airlines require min hours to get hired then the military will be a good place to get those hours and applicants will apply. Obviously, completely different from retention issues.





Retarded douche, "most" would be some number over 50%. If I was going to call someone a jackass over calling out my lie I would make sure that number was around 70-80%. Some dude in a PEP tour saying it is about 30% is real fucking exact. I also doubt you've worked with 20 RAAF guys and know all of their education credentials. Anyways, it doesn't fucking matter. We don't have an accession problem so limiting the requirements for applying would get us nowhere.



I know you love thinking you are the straw man police. Really you should just go back to your Dungeons and Dragons and let the grown ups talk about the important stuff. If getting rid of the degree requirement could fix our retention issue, then what would you propose be the requirement for applying. A high school degree? Not even that? There has to be a minimum to apply correct?
Haha, I can tell I’ve gotten under your skin at some point. Sweet wall of text.

Point stands that they don’t require a college degree to be an officer, and they make it work just fine. Sorry to spoil your point, bro.
 

pilot_man

Ex-Rhino driver
pilot
Haha, I can tell I’ve gotten under your skin at some point. Sweet wall of text.

Point stands that they don’t require a college degree to be an officer, and they make it work just fine. Sorry to spoil your point, bro.

Who gives a shit? Point stands that we do and any changes won't affect our retention issues. You are too fucking stupid to see my actual point, so it isn't spoiled, bro. That and you're a know it all little bitch. Good luck with that.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
Is there a shortage of college grads that would give their left one to fly in the military these days? It is pretty simple, Airlines hiring...dudes want to leave, been that way since the end of WWII. When the first guy gets hired by a major airline, open up the training pipeline. Every cycle the military manning idiots wait until there is an avalanche of letters being dropped before they realize they have a problem.

No shortage of folks with no flying background gunning to be military aviators. Folks with flying experience tend to be leery of an Active Duty service commitment that will cause them to miss the latest hiring wave, so lean more toward the AFR/ANG, if at all.

So far doesn’t seem to be a recruitment problem, but that may change eventually.
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
At the heart of it I get what you are trying to say here, and at some level I agree, but brother you are way off in many ways...you need (or needed) to spend a month or so flying low level clearing ops and airborne, urban gun work in a scout ship like the OH-58. Those guys were masters of friction and rapid decision making based on both direct support and ROE. The low-level aerial work over Mosul in ‘06 makes the shoot downs and boat attacks you write about seem more like Nintendo play.
I agree, except the Nintendo reference is over the top. I think most on this board would be surprised if they ever did a cross service deployment with Army aviators "on the line". Although not every Army deployment is shooting guns over Mosul, a lot are just like that. Not all Army aviators do well in that environment, but some do VERY well.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Just asked him again—he said about 30% of their aircrew (officers) don’t have a college degree. Most of the ones I’ve worked with (~20) didn’t.

Point is, it works for them.

One thing that folks tend to forget is that the RAF and RAAF along with pretty much every other air force in the world, except the Chinese, are much smaller than the USAF and US Naval Air Forces. What works for them probably wouldn't work for us or be much more difficult for us in many cases. Like the 'flying only' career track that exists in the RAF, in an air force ~10% the size of the US Navy it is a lot easier to handle more diverse personnel tracks than a huge organization like ours.

As for college degrees, it provides an easy 'filter' for the USAF, Navy and Marines to determine who has a better chance of being a successful line officer and aviator. All services provide a path for highly successful enlisted personnel to become an officers and aviators but they can provide only some of need, not all of it. Other countries have different requirements that don't include degrees but again, they have much smaller air forces and can be more selective and more targeted in who they recruit. Arguably one of the best air forces of any size is the Israeli Air Force and they recruit, train and even do their 'RAG' training in a different way (they usually don't have one) than pretty much everyone else, taking brand new recruits often without a college education and turn them in combat-ready pilots by the age of 21-22. In a country where almost everyone serves and getting into an elite combat unit is similar to getting into Harvard or Stanford, they can afford to do it that way.

For the Army, as I said before their pilots are just as skilled as any other in the service but their aviation component has a completely different focus and mission than the other services. What works for them likely won't work for the other services.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
I agree, except the Nintendo reference is over the top. I think most on this board would be surprised if they ever did a cross service deployment with Army aviators "on the line". Although not every Army deployment is shooting guns over Mosul, a lot are just like that. Not all Army aviators do well in that environment, but some do VERY well.
You are right, I was trying to be funny but it fell flat. My apologies for the Nintendo comment, it didn't carry over well and was not intended to insult those professionals.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
That's also Griz standard - bold assertion based on zero contemporary experience. I'm not sure whether you're aware, but he's a historian.
You, of course, can see my apology written to @RobLyman. It applies to all and is sincere (an it's "an" historian :cool:).
 

RadicalDude

Social Justice Warlord
Who gives a shit? Point stands that we do and any changes won't affect our retention issues. You are too fucking stupid to see my actual point, so it isn't spoiled, bro. That and you're a know it all little bitch. Good luck with that.
Negative. You’re moving the goalposts, bro.

Your point was that if we don’t require degrees, there would be no standards. I provided a counter example of the aussies who maintain a very high standard without requiring a college degree.

I agree it won’t affect retention at this point, but there is nothing stopping the baby from accessing folks to flying billets without a bachelors. Maybe worth looking into in the future. Bro.
 
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RadicalDude

Social Justice Warlord
One thing that folks tend to forget is that the RAF and RAAF along with pretty much every other air force in the world, except the Chinese, are much smaller than the USAF and US Naval Air Forces. What works for them probably wouldn't work for us or be much more difficult for us in many cases. Like the 'flying only' career track that exists in the RAF, in an air force ~10% the size of the US Navy it is a lot easier to handle more diverse personnel tracks than a huge organization like ours.

As for college degrees, it provides an easy 'filter' for the USAF, Navy and Marines to determine who has a better chance of being a successful line officer and aviator. All services provide a path for highly successful enlisted personnel to become an officers and aviators but they can provide only some of need, not all of it. Other countries have different requirements that don't include degrees but again, they have much smaller air forces and can be more selective and more targeted in who they recruit. Arguably one of the best air forces of any size is the Israeli Air Force and they recruit, train and even do their 'RAG' training in a different way (they usually don't have one) than pretty much everyone else, taking brand new recruits often without a college education and turn them in combat-ready pilots by the age of 21-22. In a country where almost everyone serves and getting into an elite combat unit is similar to getting into Harvard or Stanford, they can afford to do it that way.

For the Army, as I said before their pilots are just as skilled as any other in the service but their aviation component has a completely different focus and mission than the other services. What works for them likely won't work for the other services.
Maybe cutting down some of our operational commitments would allow us to be more selective, leaner, etc. I realize it’s civilian leadership that dictates our requirements in this arena, but I find it hard to believe we couldn’t meet our foreign policy objectives with a smaller, more highly trained and ready force.
 
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