UAL + US Air = ???

[A4sForever]

Not that I'm so 'smart' or anything ... but I saw this one comin' for a long time.

It's kinda like: 'I GOT NOWHERE ELSE TO GO ... ' !!!! 'I GOT NOWHERE ELSE TO GO ... ' !!!! (w/apologies to An Officer & a Gentleman):

US AIRWAYS, UNITED IN MERGER TALKS

 

[Recovering LSO]

as long as US Air adopts United's seats with the ability to listen to radio comms from the cockpit. I love walking aboard an aircraft and seeing blank faced FO greeting me - right before he uses the wrong callsign to ask for a pushback

 

[Catmando]

Not that I'm so 'smart' or anything ... but I saw this one comin' for a long time.

It's kinda like: 'I GOT NOWHERE ELSE TO GO ... ' !!!! 'I GOT NOWHERE ELSE TO GO ... ' !!!! (w/apologies to An Officer & a Gentleman):

US AIRWAYS, UNITED IN MERGER TALKS

I doubt this merger will ever be consummated. And if it is, it will be ugly.

America West and USAirways still haven't integrated their pilot seniority lists, and operate separately – and bitterly – years after their merger/acquisition.

A number of years ago UAL made a play for USAir. It failed because of the disparate seniority between the two pilot groups.

And UAL made an offer prior to that for America West, but it didn't go through because they couldn't agree on the remaining CEO.


All the above would be difficult to overcome if they had a good business plan and good operations. But neither doesn't.

But your quote is right on. "I got nowhere else to go....!!! I got nowhere else to go...."

It's ugly for both airlines if they remain separate; it's probably uglier if they merge. Thank God I'm retired!

 

[A4sForever]

I doubt this merger will ever be consummated. And if it is, it will be ugly.....
It's ugly for both airlines if they remain separate; it's probably uglier if they merge. Thank God I'm retired!

Roger that: I agree w/ all your presentation(s) of the 'problems' ... but they really DON'T have 'nowhere else to go' ... so ... if they don't 'go there' ???

√-6 on your pension.

And ...

...And UAL made an offer prior to that for America West, but it didn't go through because they couldn't agree on the remaining CEO ...

... if it were not for that 'little detail' ... NWA & DAL would have merged in 1983.

Believe it.

HEY !!! The current crop of empty-suit-rat-bastards that currently 'run' DAL used to 'run' NWA ... !!!

I wish the world was flat ... if so, I'd find a warm spot w/ some palm trees, white sand, and tradewinds ... relax for a few years, and then I'd jump off.

Believe that.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

A number of years ago UAL made a play for USAir. It failed because of the disparate seniority between the two pilot groups.

Wow, this seems like a lifetime ago. When these talks were going on in early 2001 I was slaving away in the cargo bins of the U.S. Airways 757s/A319/20s on the Seattle ramp.

 

[HuggyU2]

The UAL ALPA MEC is vehemently denying that there is any evidence that these negotiations are happening. Can't wait to talk to my new next door neighbor: he's one of the bottom 5 pilots at USAirways.
So.... if it did happen... I wonder if he or I will have better seniority...

 

[A4sForever]

The UAL ALPA MEC is vehemently denying that there is any evidence that these negotiations are happening...

You're closer to it and probably right, however it's 'interesting' (there's that Chinese curse again) that DAL & NWA MEC's were saying the same thing publicly while at the same time behind the curtains they were 'preparing' for all scenarios including more than one potential merger partner. In fact NWA MEC had been seriously engaged in 'planning' for an AA merger OR a DAL merger ... but all the while the MEC's maintained a public visage of 'WHO, ME??' ...

NWA's executive management team (EMT) had been an early champion of 'consolidation' as the wave of the future in the US airline market -- it was the only way out -- dominate & survive by gaining mass in the market. BE THAT 900 POUND GORILLA !!!

While the MEC's maintained a public stone-face, you just gotta' wonder how all the stars got aligned to allow DAL & NWA to file Chapter 11 on the same day without anyone in ALPA 'knowing about it' ... ... and with both companies essentially run by cohorts & fellow travelers of the same, original NWA EMT -- and many of them disciples of F. Lorenzo and/or Continental, although they like to bury those little details deep in their bios ... ... wink, wink, blink, blink ... now, really ... who could know ??? Certainly not ALPA, yea-as???

'Dick' Anderson (former NWA/now DAL) was EVP of UnitedHealth Group as he passed with his carpetbag from NWA to DAL ... 3 guesses which medical program was foisted on NWA when the two companies merged?? Your first two guesses don't count ...

As late as August 2007 'Dick' Anderson was quoted as saying regarding the possibility of a linkup with Eagan, MN based NWA: "There is (sic) no plans or intentions or previously agreed to plans to merge them."

It was reported from many sources that 'Dick' even said this with a straight face.

A year later, the deal was done ... you just gotta' love it.

For the edification & amusement of the Brotherhood, some articles of the period:

The Business Review (Albany): NWA files for bankruptcy

RedOrbit.com: Chapter 11 for NWA, DAL

 

[Catmando]

Airline mergers: Many are discussed; very few are completed.

Since UAL and USAir attempted and failed at a merger some years, primarily among other obstacles, because of the UAL MEC was against it for seniority integration reasons, one wonders why attempt again? What has changed?

Well the economy has changed and the time is ripe for industry consolidation.

But the big change is USAirways is no longer ALPA. Does this give UAL pilots the upper hand in a seniority integration? I.E., a reverse scenario of the TWA/AA pilot 'stapling 'integration?

 

[rondebmar]

I wish the world was flat ... if so, I'd find a warm spot w/ some palm trees, white sand, and tradewinds ... relax for a few years, and then I'd jump off. Believe that.

Flat or not... that's precisely what I did/am doing...'ceptin' I ain't ready to jump off yet!!

 

[Moc1Sig]

Airline mergers: Many are discussed; very few are completed.

Well the economy has changed and the time is ripe for industry consolidation.

But the big change is USAirways is no longer ALPA. Does this give UAL pilots the upper hand in a seniority integration?

I agree with many posts that this most likelywon't go through and I can't imagine the shit storm it would cause. When Amer.West/ USair merged, there initially were 19 month guys pulling seniority over 20+ year pilots! what!?! The unions and contracts would be a shipwreck, but clearly that hasn't stopped them before. I remember talking economics with a finance professor about how the big 7 airlines would likely turn into the big 3, because the nature of the business. Maybe is coming to fruition... and by fruition, the corporate Vp's with more bonuses.

I pray this doesn't happen for the sake of whatever is left of my dad's retirement.

 

[A4sForever]

Yeah ... and I'm not necessarily 'disagreeing' with anyone, but mergers and seniority list integration happens, nevertheless. The result is seldom 'pretty'.

The airline companies and their EMT's don't care about the 'shit-storms' than would ensue for the pilots and other employee groups -- perhaps they SHOULD, they just don't. It's not about the employees ... it's about the shareholders, the Board, the EMT .... it's about $$$ and their place in the 'CEO Club'. We've discussed this before.

That is precisely why there are so many airline merger horror stories for us to reference and guesstimate that 'it won't happen, because look what happened with airline X and airline Y... '

But they HAPPENED -- and more will happen -- even though they didn't necessarily make sense and won't always 'make sense' in the future (read: $$$$ and QOL) from a pilot-employee standpoint when seniority lists are merged.

PanAm ... TWA ... Air Cal ... PSA .... National ... TX International ... Southern ... Republic ... Hughes AW ... Allegheny ... Piedmont ... Frontier ... Braniff ... Air Florida ... People Express ... NY Air ... Eastern ... Western ... Jet America ... Wein ... there's more, lots more.

Delta & Northwest (Orient) Airlines ... talk to the 'senior guys' @ NWA and see what they think about the 'seniority integration' they received. Talk to any of the former NWA seniority list pilots about the backhand they've received (and are still receiving) from the current DAL MEC. It's led to resignations from what was suppose to be a couple of ALPA groups skipping happily along the lane, stopping occasionally to sniff the flowers. It's not a 'good marriage' of two ALPA seniority lists, unless you consider a shotgun marriage a 'good marriage'.

The horror shows for all too many pilots will continue when it comes to 'merging lists', industry 'consolidation', bankruptcies, or simply finding a new flying job if (when?) your current one gets shot out from under you.

 

[A4sForever]

Oh, yeah ... did I mention?? The airlines don't REALLY give a shit about the PAX when considering mergers, either. They usually give lip-service to passengers and their needs (of course), but the airline CEO's priorities are still the same ...

F.Y.I. w/ regard to UAL and USAir(ways) :

Passengers may not 'love' a big airline combination ... Yahoo! Finance

 

[HAL Pilot]

I agree with many posts that this most likelywon't go through and I can't imagine the shit storm it would cause. When Amer.West/ USair merged, there initially were 19 month guys pulling seniority over 20+ year pilots! what!?! The unions and contracts would be a shipwreck, but clearly that hasn't stopped them before.

TA BOND,
I believe you are speaking of something which you have little knowledge. Many of those USAir guys may have had 20+ years since they were hired, but they were furloughed - jobless - when the merger happened. The 19 month guys at AWA had a job. Plus even though this may have been called a merger, it was really AWA saving USAir which was within weeks of shutting down. Further, seniority integration is based on career expectations. AWA pilots could expect to go from FO to Captain in 5 - 7 years. IF their airline survived (which was highly doubtful) the USAir FOs could expect to be furloughed and maybe get their job back before retirement.

USAir pilots also agreed to binding arbitration and when the Arbitrator agreed that an AWA pilot WITH a current job should be more senior to a USAIR pilot that was furloughed and WITHOUT a current job, the USAir pilots refused to honor their commitment to binding arbitration. Then since they outnumbered AWA pilots, they voted out ALPA and created the abortion that is USAPA so try and imposed their own reality. The results is the current mess that is now US Airways with 2 separate pilot groups and the AWA or West side getting better pay and benefits than the USAir or East side.

Oh by the way, the judge and jury agreed with the AWA / West pilots and has ordered the implementation of the seniority list the Arbitrator imposed. Of course, the USAir / East pilots are appealing but they have little chance of winning. The Judge is supposed to hold the penalty phase of the trial real soon and there is a very good chance that USAPA and East pilots will lose their financial asses when he rules. Meanwhile, US Airways as an airline continues to suffer from the unrest these "Eastholes" (as there are widely known) continue to cause as they cry like babies. It was really pathetic when Sully tried to use his ditching fame to argue the Easthole side and the Judge laughed at him.

Also, the vast majority of the rest of the major airline pilots side with the AWA / West pilots and have absolutely ZERO respect for the USAir / East pilots.

On the outside chance that this merge happens, the AWA and United pilots will outnumber the USAir pilots and they will be brought back into ALPA. That will be the end of USAPA and in addition to being below the 19 month AWA pilots, those 20 year USAir FOs will find themselves even lower down the combined senority list.

 

[HAL Pilot]

But the big change is USAirways is no longer ALPA. Does this give UAL pilots the upper hand in a seniority integration?

Oh hell yeah. The reverse of the USAPA abortion. USAir and AWA hadn't completed their seniority integration when the East forced USAPA down the AWA pilots throats. You can bet your bottom dollar that every West pilot will voted for ALPA back and that the combined United/AWA pilots will force this union representation elections ASAP.

 

[Moc1Sig]

TA BOND,
I believe you are speaking of something which you have little knowledge. Many of those USAir guys may have had 20+ years since they were hired, but they were furloughed - jobless - when the merger happened. The 19 month guys at AWA had a job. Plus even though this may have been called a merger, it was really AWA saving USAir which was within weeks of shutting down. Further, seniority integration is based on career expectations. AWA pilots could expect to go from FO to Captain in 5 - 7 years. IF their airline survived (which was highly doubtful) the USAir FOs could expect to be furloughed and maybe get their job back before retirement.

USAir pilots also agreed to binding arbitration and when the Arbitrator agreed that an AWA pilot WITH a current job should be more senior to a USAIR pilot that was furloughed and WITHOUT a current job, the USAir pilots refused to honor their commitment to binding arbitration. Then since they outnumbered AWA pilots, they voted out ALPA and created the abortion that is USAPA so try and imposed their own reality. The results is the current mess that is now US Airways with 2 separate pilot groups and the AWA or West side getting better pay and benefits than the USAir or East side.

Oh by the way, the judge and jury agreed with the AWA / West pilots and has ordered the implementation of the seniority list the Arbitrator imposed. Of course, the USAir / East pilots are appealing but they have little chance of winning. The Judge is supposed to hold the penalty phase of the trial real soon and there is a very good chance that USAPA and East pilots will lose their financial asses when he rules. Meanwhile, US Airways as an airline continues to suffer from the unrest these "Eastholes" (as there are widely known) continue to cause as they cry like babies. It was really pathetic when Sully tried to use his ditching fame to argue the Easthole side and the Judge laughed at him.

Also, the vast majority of the rest of the major airline pilots side with the AWA / West pilots and have absolutely ZERO respect for the USAir / East pilots.

On the outside chance that this merge happens, the AWA and United pilots will outnumber the USAir pilots and they will be brought back into ALPA. That will be the end of USAPA and in addition to being below the 19 month AWA pilots, those 20 year USAir FOs will find themselves even lower down the combined senority list.

I'm not speaking out my ass because my dad was the 25 year captain (not furloughed), who the 2 year west coast studs were trying to push around and whine themselves. He was there when they broke away from ALPA, its not east coast US air pilots being whinny, but Ethics. Just like this guy said, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_theory equity theory, relationship of fair treatment and motivation. clearly this doesn't exist in the airlines, but hat doesn't mean people should stand up for it.

Yes, you do know more and have studied this more than me.

Yes, if they did merge with united USair would have to go back to ALPA and would be the underdog

Not trying to disagree with anything you said Hal. just don't speak like usair pilots are whinny bitches, because the system of corporate contracts, loopholes and expensive lawyers defeat them in court. Just like you guys, they worked hard and want to "find a warm spot w/ some palm trees, white sand, and tradewinds ... relax for a few years," not find themselves being pushed of the edge right now.