The problem with the RV is there’s not much room to pile your money on the floor and roll around in it.
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The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??
- Thread starter A4sForever
- Start date
I've heard of cheap airline pilots, but that's some next level shit! ?
Hey, it's a lifestyle.
OK, when it comes to airlines I am simply a paying meat sack in the back, but this kind of upsets me…guys in the SHOW don’t practice flying manually?
www.airlinerwatch.com
FAA: Pilots should be capable of flying aircraft manually when needed
An online publication dedicated to providing the latest news, progress, and market intelligence about the global airliner industry.
Less a problem now then a few years ago. After Asiana and a couple other mishaps the airlines began to reorient to more hand flying in training. It has just taken this long for the FAA to publish the AC.OK, when it comes to airlines I am simply a paying meat sack in the back, but this kind of upsets me…guys in the SHOW don’t practice flying manually?
FAA: Pilots should be capable of flying aircraft manually when needed
An online publication dedicated to providing the latest news, progress, and market intelligence about the global airliner industry.
As a commuter I put a lot of time on the jumpseat in other airline cockpits. Probably the best for time spent hand flyimg was SWA. I have one airline in mind that put on the auto pilot right after gear up. In fact, IIRC, I was told they were prohibited from hand flying IMC. I would think hand flying, while emphasized more in training, still remains rusty for most.
Most people at my company turn the autopilot on after the first few minutes of flight and turn it off around the FAF.OK, when it comes to airlines I am simply a paying meat sack in the back, but this kind of upsets me…guys in the SHOW don’t practice flying manually?
FAA: Pilots should be capable of flying aircraft manually when needed
An online publication dedicated to providing the latest news, progress, and market intelligence about the global airliner industry.
The only improvements I think could really be made are encouraging people to fly the whole approach and to fly some with the autothrottles off. Even then, though, there are approaches we do frequently that we're required to keep the AP on for (namely RNP approaches).
@mad dog has shared with me more than a few times that it's considered rude at his company to hand fly - because you are making the other dude *work*. Meaning the PM now needs to spin dials on the mode control panel and additional call outs for the non flying pilot.
And I've heard airline guys at my club say that even on a visual approach they fly a glideslope on final - that flying a jet without verticle guidance GS is too high a workload. Curious if that's consensus or not.
And I've heard airline guys at my club say that even on a visual approach they fly a glideslope on final - that flying a jet without verticle guidance GS is too high a workload. Curious if that's consensus or not.
I’d say that’s a sign of deteriorating pilot skill, and some proficiency is in order. Just my opinion…
Prob depends on who you ask. Now that I’ve kinda figured out the automation and energy management during arrivals, I’ve started to try and click out a lot earlier on the approach, especially visuals, to get a better feel for the plane/throttle adjustments/etc. Haven’t had a single person complain about it. Yes the PM will need to spin a couple dials a couple times more than they would have, but at $300+/hr, I haven’t met one yet who minds. I don’t either. I think there is also a time for more automation as well though......complex or exacting arrival and/or approach procedures in a busy terminal environment, or perhaps a departure in busy airspace that has a lot of climb restrictions/etc.
I’ve also really gooned up the e management piece before, and just turned it all off and flown a normal seat of the pants visual with no guidance at all, albeit with a really aggressive (but just barely legal) descent profile to unf*** what I just f***ed. Potentially not the choice solution, but all those dicked up horribly modified CV-1 approaches when the recovery train goes off the tracks, give you some tools to reach for in the experience toolbox, to include living right up against the minute to live rule, and having a sense for when you need to “catch” a really aggressive vertical correction on visual glide slope. Bonus points if your OE check airman notes that you miraculously got everything stabilized and the engines spooled 100’ above the mandatory 500’ stable approach gate
I’ve also really gooned up the e management piece before, and just turned it all off and flown a normal seat of the pants visual with no guidance at all, albeit with a really aggressive (but just barely legal) descent profile to unf*** what I just f***ed. Potentially not the choice solution, but all those dicked up horribly modified CV-1 approaches when the recovery train goes off the tracks, give you some tools to reach for in the experience toolbox, to include living right up against the minute to live rule, and having a sense for when you need to “catch” a really aggressive vertical correction on visual glide slope. Bonus points if your OE check airman notes that you miraculously got everything stabilized and the engines spooled 100’ above the mandatory 500’ stable approach gate
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Handflying is encouraged and done where I work. No one complains about having to spin dials for the Pilot Flying. Frankly, I would say something if I had a pilot act annoyed for having to actually be "the Pilot Monitoring" and do their duties.
All approaches... including Visual... are flown with some sort of precision guidance. The criteria for stabilized approaches and having FOQA seems to drive it. If cleared the Visual, we still fly the ILS.
Auto-throttles on approach: the 777 fleet prefers to leave them on until touchdown when handflying. I don't do it, so I brief I'm turning everything off since I'm the outlier. The 737 and 757/767 fleets turn off autopilot and autothrottles... there is no "doing it half way".
RNAV approaches: going into places like Denver and Houston where you prep for the ILS and get a last minute RNAV creates some problems. Frankly, the automation for RNAV approaches should be better (e.g., I shouldn't have to go load in RNP and Vertical Deviation numbers... it should be automatic). I got bit last week for the first time on an RNAV approach, and it was a shitshow. They really aren't hard, but we don't do them much in the real world. It's too bad the GLS approaches into IAH and EWR don't seem to be a thing anymore. We could fly them in some of our 737's. They seemed very promising, and were flown just like an ILS.
ops.group
All approaches... including Visual... are flown with some sort of precision guidance. The criteria for stabilized approaches and having FOQA seems to drive it. If cleared the Visual, we still fly the ILS.
Auto-throttles on approach: the 777 fleet prefers to leave them on until touchdown when handflying. I don't do it, so I brief I'm turning everything off since I'm the outlier. The 737 and 757/767 fleets turn off autopilot and autothrottles... there is no "doing it half way".
RNAV approaches: going into places like Denver and Houston where you prep for the ILS and get a last minute RNAV creates some problems. Frankly, the automation for RNAV approaches should be better (e.g., I shouldn't have to go load in RNP and Vertical Deviation numbers... it should be automatic). I got bit last week for the first time on an RNAV approach, and it was a shitshow. They really aren't hard, but we don't do them much in the real world. It's too bad the GLS approaches into IAH and EWR don't seem to be a thing anymore. We could fly them in some of our 737's. They seemed very promising, and were flown just like an ILS.
What's the deal with GLS approaches?
A new and reliable technology is being steadily introduced across the world that stands poised to eventually replace the humble ILS all together. In fact it has already been rolled-out to well over one hundred major airports. It’s called GBAS, or Ground Based Augmentation System if you want to ge
ops.group
Interesting about the A/T on the 777 Huggy, wonder why that is? Also yeah, i was surprised to see that at pretty much every major airport I’ve been to, it’s either gonna be an ILS or the visual, no love for RNAV, exception being SAN. One of the nice things about our AK flying is that you can pretty much connect RNAV dep to route all the way through an RNP approach with no discontinuities, so you are in VNAV path from takeoff to landing. Extremely simple. I’d guess maybe doing this in busy airspace where arrivals frequently involve vectors and ad hoc speed restrictions for spacing doesn’t lend itself to this. But it would certainly reduce errors if they could make it work, I’d think.
I don't know but would guess that it was simply a function of it was a capability they designed into it. On 737 and 757 / 767, you cannot land an approach autopilot OFF and autothrottle ON (unless I'm remembering it wrong). Remember: the Triple 7 was Boeing's first FBW airliner. As a side note, I've seen one autoland in the actual 777. Amazing.
Neat! I've never seen that done! Yes, it would be nice if airports/airspace in the lower 48 could accomodate that.
A friend who works at FAA SATNAV office and evangalizes the move from terrestrial systems to RNP/WAAS/GBAS based procedures for Air Carriers have told me its all about $. The major carriers have pushed back on the $ to change (hardware, STC, Ops Specs, training, etc). Horizon and Alaska airlines both received significant federal funding to adopted RNP and GBAS precision approaches and traditional RNAV to WAAS LPV mins (still considered NP for alternate filing). Her office publishes a quarterly newsletter about the progress here. They actually offered me a job in DC to draft ops spec, procedures, and training documents for 121 and 135 carriers and do road show demos with mobile procedure trainer type devices (similar to the PT devices used by air carriers - the ones you all use for learning the FMS and flows before starting sims)
Yep, you are correct about the 73. We do takeoff/climb in A/T but no A/P, however I guess the approach part is a no-no for some reason. I imagine it has to do with the operation/response of the A/T. They must talk to the A/P because they suck hard when it is not engaged, based on my experience during departures. Think you're gonna make a nice smooth intermediate level off by disregarding the VNAV pitch guidance and shallowing your climb? Goodbye 250 knot restriction. In that setting they are stupid and seem to just set an N1 and expect you to fly the commands. It's dumb. But it was made in like 1850, so who knows.
I haven't done an auto land in the wild yet, but we did it as a demo item on OE on a VMC day. Pretty cool to watch. It would be a fair statement that it landed better than most of us can.
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I forget their names, but there were two Alaska pilots who, during their spare time, invented RNP approaches. One is retired working in AZ, and I believe the other is still working in our technical ops department (or whatever the 100 lb brain shop is called). Pretty genius given the problem they were presented with, and the technology that made itself available in the early 2000s. I just don't even know where you begin with a project like that, but it is pretty awesome. As an example, PAJN was a 1000' ish DA/DDA on the LDA for forever, which isn't great on a lot of days. The RNP that took its place on the same runway gets you (now) to less than 300'. It also provides a similar DA to the opposite direction which hadn't previously been an option, navigating well below the terrain through the channel with just barely a mile or so to spare either side. Other examples would be various fields around SE AK that didn't have ground based precision approaches, which we can now service in real low weather with an RNP. Cool stuff.