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The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Those ASAP reports sometimes find their way into the next year's recurrent syllabus or even next quarter's CBTs, as well as other feedback loop programs like FOQA, LOSA, and check airmen's observations from line checks (to name a few).

Which isn't to say that the good operators didn't do that all along, just that these are the present tools that the industry uses to make sure their training programs keep up with the real world instead of stagnating.
 

wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Officer
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
And something very bad to report about ASAP, at least at my airline. When I ended up before the big table for something unfortunate (once detailed for all AW members to benefit from) we were told that the majority of cases that end up in an investigation and meeting with the FAA result in one pilot throwing the other under the bus. We were actually praised for our openness. Hard to believe that especially when pilots are accepted into the program with virtually no consequence, they can't be open and honest about their actions and have to shift their share of the responsibility.
 

sevenhelmet

Far from this opera for evermore...
pilot
And something very bad to report about ASAP, at least at my airline. When I ended up before the big table for something unfortunate (once detailed for all AW members to benefit from) we were told that the majority of cases that end up in an investigation and meeting with the FAA result in one pilot throwing the other under the bus. We were actually praised for our openness. Hard to believe that especially when pilots are accepted into the program with virtually no consequence, they can't be open and honest about their actions and have to shift their share of the responsibility.
That's unfortunate. On it's face though, it sounds more like a commentary about pilots at your airline than it does a negative review of ASAP.

This exact topic came up in the company ASAP training we did a few months ago. The presenter specifically commented that in his experience that kind of behavior is more common in larger companies where pilots regularly work with people they don't know well. A mistake or "other" happens during a flight, and its often the path of least resistance to blame the other guy. It's hard to see how ASAP itself could prevent that kind of behavior, but a good company safety culture certainly can help.
 

wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Officer
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
That's unfortunate. On it's face though, it sounds more like a commentary about pilots at your airline than it does a negative review of ASAP.

This exact topic came up in the company ASAP training we did a few months ago. The presenter specifically commented that in his experience that kind of behavior is more common in larger companies where pilots regularly work with people they don't know well. A mistake or "other" happens during a flight, and its often the path of least resistance to blame the other guy. It's hard to see how ASAP itself could prevent that kind of behavior, but a good company safety culture certainly can help.
I didn't mean it as a commentary on the program. I think you are right. It clearly was an issue with our pilot group. We couldn't believe it. Neither one of us is built that way. I always said, if I had to get in hot water, I was flying with the right captain. Awesome dude.

On balance, it was a positive experience. We even got paid. Removed from a 3 day trip, we flew into DFW and stayed one night and about 4 hours in interview and training and paid for three days. The union ASAP people were absolutely great, company supportive with the Fleet Captain even allied, and the FAA was very reasonable. Sympathetic to the circumstances we encountered, they were going to let us walk. But on further reflection the company asked for 60 minutes remedial training to make it look like they were taking it serious. They got a ground school instructor in the break room and told him to sit with us and answer all our questions for 60 minutes. Turned out he couldn't address what happened to us, so the three of us sat around worked through some unrelated "there I was" and "what's it doing now" scenarios. If pilots really knew how ASAP worked and had confidence in the program, maybe they would not let their evil angels edit their story.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
No letter in the file or meeting over the big green table.
99% of ASAPs are written by pilots after a flight and before anyone from management or your company's FAA POI know about it. Write the ASAP and read the ASAP panels comments a couple of months later.

When you have an incident and the whole world sees it, then the ASAP becomes the tool to minimize the consequences to a letter and/or retraining.

In my case, I was on a 2 Captain, 1 FO crew doing an overnight turn to Pago Pago. Take off at 3 pm from HNL and land back in HNL at 5 am. I was the relief pilot. All 3 are supposed to be in the cockpit bellow 10K for takeoff and landing according to our FOM. I was sleeping in 1st class during the descent into HNL and the Captain told the FA not to wake me up. The touchdown woke me up. Unfortunately the touchdown was on a runway that had the last 3000 feet or so closed an hour before..... The hard braking as the flying pilots tried to stop before going through the orange cones woke me up. There were lots of contributing factors - no NOTAM published, being cleared by approach to a runway too short for airline aircraft, ATIS in a non-standard order and misleading verbiage, the orange cones not having their lights turned on (it was dark), the first indication the crew had (because they misread the ATIS) was at 400 AGL with "cleared to land 04R shortened, and a few more I can't remember.

My letter said I did not follow FOM procedures in that I was not in the cockpit for landing but did admit there were contributing factors (i.e. not being woken up as I asked the FAs to do at top of descent). The line check was a formality so the company could say they did something. I actually took place about 4 months and 2o flights later conveniently at the time I needed my annual line check.

The Captain and FO got letters and line checks too. The approach and tower controllers were disciplined and retrained, and the airport administration got a hit from the FAA.
 

ChuckMK23

Well-Known Member
pilot
Those ASAP reports sometimes find their way into the next year's recurrent syllabus or even next quarter's CBTs, as well as other feedback loop programs like FOQA, LOSA, and check airmen's observations from line checks (to name a few).

Which isn't to say that the good operators didn't do that all along, just that these are the present tools that the industry uses to make sure their training programs keep up with the real world instead of stagnating.
"unstabilized approach" !!!
 

Python1287

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor


Anybody have thoughts on this? Owning a dozen planes and leasing a few dozen others doesn't make one a strong opponent to UPS/FedEx, but what's that saying about the journey of a thousand miles? Curious about the long term avtiation theories of a company that has a trillion dollar market cap, interest in logistics, and a ruthless leader.
 

Griz882

Livin' On the Right Side of the River From Pags!
pilot
Contributor

PhrogLoop

Adulting is hard
pilot


I'm guessing that the first company (probably Amazon) to snap up some old Cold War war birds and a handful of AA missiles is bound to take the lead. Let the coming "corporate wars begin!
I’m sure Diamond would love that! https://aircargoworld.com/news/technology/the-ace-of-amazon-air-sarah-rhoads-is-the-air-cargo-executive-of-the-year/
 

wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Officer
None
Super Moderator
Contributor

PhrogLoop

Adulting is hard
pilot
Diamond was her callsign? In my day that might not have flown. Too many syllables for radio brevity. Rarely saw anything over two syllables. The best were one. I lost gangster to wink, in part because it was too long. Our legal officer was Counselor, but was shortened to "Counsie".
“di-mond” for brevity! Forgot to mention she is a VP now.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor


Anybody have thoughts on this? Owning a dozen planes and leasing a few dozen others doesn't make one a strong opponent to UPS/FedEx, but what's that saying about the journey of a thousand miles? Curious about the long term avtiation theories of a company that has a trillion dollar market cap, interest in logistics, and a ruthless leader.
Amazon runs Prime Air with a mixture of leased and owned aircraft. They own Prime Air but they contract out the flying to either Atlas or ATI. The aircraft operate under the those carrier's certificates. Prime Air is for moving and delivering Amazon products and orders, they are not an effort to compete with FedEx or UPS.
 

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot


Anybody have thoughts on this? Owning a dozen planes and leasing a few dozen others doesn't make one a strong opponent to UPS/FedEx, but what's that saying about the journey of a thousand miles? Curious about the long term avtiation theories of a company that has a trillion dollar market cap, interest in logistics, and a ruthless leader.
🥱
 

scoolbubba

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Amazon runs Prime Air with a mixture of leased and owned aircraft. They own Prime Air but they contract out the flying to either Atlas or ATI. The aircraft operate under the those carrier's certificates. Prime Air is for moving and delivering Amazon products and orders, they are not an effort to compete with FedEx or UPS.
It's easier for Bezos to keep those pilots paid less that way. If he brings them into the Amazon house as their own cargo airline, industry standard for widebody cargo is Purple/UPS pay rates. Cheaper to just whipsaw ATI and Atlas labor against one another.
 
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